Feminism pays off – Magdalena M. Baran talks to Aleksandra Karasińska

Magdalena M. Baran: Back to Szymborska reading. Recently, I was one more time touched by a passage: “The man had views—a female inactive only seeing herself, the equivalent of his strong will was her feminine stubbornness, and his prudentness her calculating, and in situations where the man was called a tactician, the female remained a scheming woman.” And despite all our advancement in equality, in the designation and implementation of laws, in the improvement of feminism... The thought inactive fails to overcome. It returns like persistent hiccups, putting women's achievements into question. specified reasoning is not only a rhetorical procedure, but a fact we face many times in life. On 1 side it, on the other... feminism. Are we doomed to eternal sed contra est? Is this the celebrated "fike"?

Aleksandra Karasińska: I am glad that you started with this quote from Szymborska. This is simply a fragment of her column published in “Literary Life” in the 1970s. This quote speaks of double standards, about practice erstwhile in the same situations society treats women and men differently. He painfully shows that since the 1970s, erstwhile Szymborska wrote it, small has changed. Double standards are very good. Women working in companies or colleges, students, and even students are judged differently for the same behavior, blamed, while their colleagues are praised for the exact same things. At a time erstwhile men are judged assertive, women for an identical reaction will be described as hysterical.

This is paradoxical, as far as I see, on the another hand, how much the situation of women is changing in statistical data. There are more of us in the labour market, we are better educated. present in Poland, in the fresh generation, we have more women with a master's degree than men with a akin degree. We have 30 percent of women in this parliament. Despite this progress, patriarchal standards are inactive very well. erstwhile you ask me about the back, which is simply a phenomenon called by Americans backlashWe've been watching them for years. We feminists, researchers, journalists. In Poland, the dark period of cofka was the period of the regulation of the Law and Justice. It was a time erstwhile women's rights were taken distant – we are not just talking about reproductive rights and the anti-abortion bill that has been tightened. Let us remember that Minister Ziobro wanted to retreat Poland from the Istanbul Convention, which countered force against women, backing was withdrawn on the Blue Line and many organizations supporting women, in schools there was virtually no sexual or wellness education. Today, erstwhile I talk to women's organizations, leaders or activists, I feel a large frustration due to the fact that they hoped that after 2023, after the democratic coalition came to power, something would change. Meanwhile, we have 2025 and specified a strong symbol of this frustration is the impossibility of forcing the liberalisation of anti-abortion law.

The United Right Government treated women as second-class citizens, even if the Prime Minister appeared, she was Prime Minister, likewise with the Marshal. And it's not about these female tips at all, but about specified almost defeminization, deposition in almost sexless function. All these moments where women in specified crucial positions – burn six, that from the organization hand – could strengthen another women. But it couldn't work. The coalition was expected on October 15, while disappointing. I remember talking to young girls, with my students, with those who went to protests, sometimes organizing them in their towns... I remember their anger erstwhile they felt the squandering of their work, erstwhile they mobilised others – not just young people – to go to elections due to the fact that they believed in change. present they look at the governments of reasonably conservative men who make further bows towards the right-wing electorate and... they don't truly realize what happened.

They collide with the wall, and I feel like everything has been said here. decision Szymona Holowna and PSL are very conservative parties that do not represent women's demands. In addition, we have an ultra-conservative president who will not support any feminist demands, will not sign any of the laws that favour us. But I think this A global anti-feminist backlash is something deeper. With Trump coming, it became clear that this anti-female, conservative counter-revolution is coming to mainstream and power. We see equality being erased from the sides of American institutions, the word gender It becomes a forbidden word that large corporations follow this, throw the DEI policy into the garbage (diversity equity inclusion), That in schools in the United States, lists of banned books are created, and all government pages are deleted due to the fact that they mentioned the word gender...

Sounds like discipline fiction due to the fact that we're utilized to reasoning of America as a home of freedom. Meanwhile, these are hard facts. A fewer moments ago, I spoke to a friend of a professor, at 1 of the American universities, who was active in the inclusive language, the survey of attendance. gender in language, the exclusions that appear in it. There are already voices that it can ‘move’ these studies, may not deal with these subjects openly, that it can... little courses about it. It's not an isolated voice, it's akin from scientists all over the States. The trend besides begins to be seen in primary or secondary schools, and in what more conservative states it is accepted with open arms. I'm reminded of a image of woman Liberty packing her suitcases and moving out of the States... Freedom seeking its place.

You know, I realized that this phenomenon is much deeper. This anti-feminist combination is very closely linked to the crisis of democracy, which we have been talking about for over a decade. I callback the slogan of the Women's legislature a fewer years ago: "Democracy without women is half democracy". Wise and very right, but present I see that they can be read backwards, that is, "There are no rights of women without democracy, without the regulation of law, respect for human rights and a transparent electoral process." Without all that is contained in the slogan "liberal democracy", we cannot request the rights of women or minorities, can we? At a time erstwhile extremism and polarisation grow, populist politicians usage anti-feminist slogans very effectively to build a base of their supporters, to antagonize society, deepen divisions.

And since any people do, they seem to find discrimination profitable... At 1 time Agnieszka Graff, rather provocatively said that the full problem with discrimination is that it is profitable for some. And in fact, quite a few people don't make a good political capital. The thing is, the investigator rapidly stated that we cannot let go of justice, we cannot replace it with anything else. You show that justice and hence feminism pays off. And not only at the level of ideas, but in hard data.

I prove it in a book I just finished writing. I show that feminism pays off, that equality pays off. It reminds me of a large title from the cover of a alternatively conservative British magazine "The Economist", which proclaimed: "Countries that neglect women, fail" (Countrys that neglect women fall). In my book I effort to explain and convince readers and readers that feminism is present today. I'm convinced that Demanding equality is not a zero-sum game: they claim to win either women or men. The approach to economics that I represent shows that equality and respect for women's rights gives a better chance to everyone. Even at this basic level of family, due to the fact that if a female earns more, the full household is richer. The work for housekeeping is not just 1 man, or man. This in turn gives more safety and opportunities for development, education, children. In turn, erstwhile feminists request equality at work, they change the culture of companies, we have more respect for all: women, minorities, but besides for men. Everybody gets it.

In times of cofka, in these times of ridicule of feminism in general, I effort to show statistical data, facts. Besides, the word feminism itself is inactive taboo. In Poland, many women, very smart and cool, seem to want to make feminism out of them any horrible baby boys who hatred men. Of course, it is caricature.

You know, it seemed to me like that about 15 or 20 years ago. And a small bit from the then struggling feminists “I got hit”. Fortunately, these times are behind us, due to the fact that this is besides another, otherwise conscious feminism. At my place – in practice.

It was a deliberate action. In the 1960s and 1970s, erstwhile the second wave feminism in the US brought the most rights to women, anti-feminist movements (e.g. Eagle Forum founded by Phyllis Schlafly) besides appeared. It was at that time that the feminist word was negative, as prof. Claudia Goldin wrote: “The words “feminist” and “feminism” entered into widespread usage in the 1960s, but shortly became new. They began to be preceded by the words “fighting” and “radical”.That's erstwhile they created the image of a feminist as an aggressive lunatic who hates men. In full ideology and confusion of disputes very frequently I just effort to mention to data, due to the fact that numbers cannot be discussed.

With numbers, you don't discuss facts, even if any people effort very hard. Here we come to a point where feminism is not only the slogans that are worn on banners, but the practice of everyday life. The practice you are talking about is not only reproductive rights, but besides labour laws, equal pay issues, but besides access to career development, which involves a full lot of our decisions. It is here that we consider having children, putting our time together, reasoning about the care system, home and workplace, which due to the distribution of privileges and burdens can and should be equal. It's about justice that doesn't should be fought to the ground all day. And here you say feminism pays for everything. You show it in numbers. It pays and has a direct impact on the economy, but besides on the functioning of the company, home and state.

You know, I'm from 30 I'm a writer for years, and it hurts me that we live in a time of post-truth, erstwhile people get information mostly from social media and are flooded with fake news, propaganda and misinformation. More than half the planet believes that the emancipation of women has gone besides far, as can be seen from the IPSOS UK Global Institute for Women Leadership study. More than half the people in the world! Respondents even believe that men are discriminated against today. Worse still, young people, including women, besides in Poland, vote for the Confederation, but not only.

That's why I care so much about facts and details. To people who fight for equality, I want to hand over weapons: data, facts, research. Of course, women's rights are human rights and on this moral basis we should request equality. But I think it is worth convincing not only from the position of moral superiority, but besides from the applicable position, explaining that it is beneficial for everyone.

It's usually profitable for all of us, and not just in the home edition. It must be seen as a origin that strengthens the functioning of the state, the functioning of democracy, but besides as a marketplace indicator.

It's true. More equal countries are more politically stable, safer, richer, better functioning and more stable. If we had achieved a parity with men on a global scale, it would have translated into economical growth by 26%, as McKinsey Global Institute calculated. Today, Western countries are struggling with low economical growth, our Polish oscillation of about 3–4%, is 1 of the higher in Europe. If in the richest countries - here OECD data - the wage gap had been bridged, we would have achieved an average GDP growth of 9% by 2060 in all these countries. That's a lot. Another example: if we in the European Union – in turn the EIGE Institute, the European Institute for sex Equality – reduced inequalities, in 2050 it would bring GDP growth between 6 and 10%, which means an additional EUR 2 to 3 trillion. If we look at Poland, our GDP could be 9% higher if we better exploit women's possible in the labour market, and in the short term, by 2030. This would be the equivalent of nearly PLN 300 billion a year. These are data from McKinsey's survey on how to better exploit the possible of women in the Polish economy.

Looking at specified large macroeconomic data, we see that equalizing women's chances is usually worth it. In the book, I effort to show very different aspects of inequality, whether in the field of education or access to healthcare, or yet in access to power or decision-making positions in business. Reproductive rights can besides be viewed economically. The Americans have done a very interesting survey showing that those states which, after the repeal of the Roe v. Wade ruling and reinstated the abortion ban, have lost economically, and those which maintained a safe, legal word of pregnancy have gained. I think that these and akin arguments inactive do not penetrate public awareness, and that the opinion that men are being taken is constantly dominant. That's what populists are using, promising that they'll take back time, take back society back to the time of... let's say from the 1950s.

To well past times of the species Kinder, Küche, Kirche (children, kitchen, church), a slogan embodying the position of a female as a wife and mother, perpetuating the alleged conventional function of a female in society and family.

"We'll go back and... everything will be normal." This is besides why we talk so much about men present in the context of feminism.

In fact, we're talking about men, but you know, it's terrible erstwhile it abruptly turns out that those who see themselves as strong and determined abruptly turn out to be paralyzed by the power of women and the wisdom of women. Yet, they inactive draw from it, frequently raised by strong mothers whom they owe much. And yet they depreciate them... Look at this celebrated saying that “a man is simply a head, and a female is simply a neck that spins it”... It's ridiculous, and it's really... stereotypical to look at it, it's not good for each side. The most crucial question in all of this is why the data you talk about do not penetrate, why investigation says 1 thing, and the “street” stubbornly repeats its own and builds stereotypes. I meet a full bunch of smart, cool girls who frequently get out of the home or out of school that they gotta wait for them to let go, or else they're just going to be these scheming, calculating, non-female girls, they're going to be the stubborn girls who are kicking their feet. Yes, frequently not women, but girls who want something, and should wait.

We're inactive going back to Szymborska, to stereotypes. For specified sex dualism we are culturally programmed already at the age of 5. About this age, all children realize what it means to be a girl, and what it means to be a boy, what we should look like as a girl and a boy, how we should think and behave and what is acceptable or not. Later these childhood stereotypes have a large impact on our educational, professional and life choices. I will besides remind you that these stereotypes are not implemented neutrally, but that all progression is penalized. Interestingly, in the case of boys crossing are punished more strongly, so sex stereotypes are more categorical for men.

In addition, see: present we have almost 20 million women in Poland. They're very different. We have respective generations of women who grew up knowing the concept of equality, but without experiencing it in everyday life. That's why we live in specified a unusual schizophrenic state. Girls are told that the planet is open erstwhile she works, learns, possibly everything. Later, these girls collide with reality: they run into a college, into a company where there is immense discrimination. In the book, I collected reports from various women's organizations, from different industries, and they show the scale of what women in Poland conflict with all day.

On the 1 hand, they collide with stereotyped men in positions who are frequently weaker in substance but besides organizationally or emotionally. I think we see it in all sectors. But they besides collide with women, consciously or subconsciously practicing the rule of "grandmother woman." I think that's even worse... I've met so many on my professional path.

These are alleged patriarchal guards. Let us remember that these sex norms and this patriarchal image of the planet are equally implemented into the heads of women as men. However, as I analyse these for research, I observe a phenomenon that I find very interesting. In Poland quite a few bottom-up, social women's organizations, including manufacture organisations, grew. For example, the Polish Association Foundation in Medicine, Women in Cybersecurity, Women in Law Foundation, Women in Science, Perspectives Women in Tech. Of course there is simply a Women's legislature that does its own research, there is 30% Club and many others. erstwhile I read their reports, I frequently wanted to cry due to the fact that erstwhile you read, you collide with circumstantial relationships, with what this discrimination looks like. And this is simply a toxic mix of sexism, humiliation, worse treatment, obstruction of promotion, discrimination for motherhood, sexual harassment, and mobbing. Like the report. “Let them hear us” from 2022 I found quotes from surveys. For example: “I frequently hear your kind of comments lost, your place is in the kitchen”, or “How nervous, the boy should cut the leash”, “Do you have these days or always mean?”... Another survey indicated that the female was included in the contract with a message that she would not become pregnant or marry from the date of signing the contract for another 5 years. Another responsive recalled: “I erstwhile went to get a rise and heard: you have a husband, a good earner, no children, why do you request the money?” another polls: “Women truly can't program”, “Women just spoil the atmosphere in the band”. And the quote, which I remember most, due to the fact that each of us finds in it: “Every female who speaks out is aggressive.”

And so we go back to Szymborska, to seeing a female as a swindler or a stubborn small girl who's been kicking her leg until she gets what she wants. And if he doesn't, he'll be offended. In fact, we go back much deeper than the 1970s, although at home we frequently had amazing, independent, wise emancipated women. That's what I think of my parent and grandmother, who were a mess of life, besides due to the fact that they had strong spines and good boundaries. And it was a substance of education, but besides upbringing. There are many solutions in these 2 processes, but besides opportunities. due to the fact that we're learning different roles today. But there is simply a mass of "dark spots" – I look at the definition of shame, which always stands before my eyes erstwhile I think of printing stereotypes of early childhood. There is simply a minute erstwhile children play at the sandbox and the girl, erstwhile she wants to go to the bathroom, take her home immediately. The boy can pee in the first bushes. And that stays longer. It's a simple thing to say. It defines simple inequality, but besides different approaches to principles and standards.

The phenomenon you're talking about is described in feminist literature and is called Victorian Uczow Smycz. due to the fact that in Queen Victoria's time, women dressed in long dresses and laced in corsets couldn't leave the home any further than their bladder allowed. There were no public toilets for women. Besides, we have inactive not full dealt with this problem, and even today, this deficiency of toilets is hard for women. She wrote about it. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I guess the most celebrated American lawyer in almost 3 decades. United States ultimate Court. There were no women's toilets on American college campuses for a long time, and in the ultimate Court, erstwhile the first female was being considered at any point, but most judges found that impossible due to the fact that there is no toilet. And today? In countries specified as India, where there is simply a plague of rape and violence, women are afraid to deal with a proverbial bush due to the fact that this situation for them is double dangerous.

But since you mentioned social roles, it's worth saying that much is happening present in social media, where the communication process is mostly transferred. You can see quite a few self-confident influencers, you can read a lot about girl power, Thanks to the net the full #MeToo movement grew. As a consequence Many people who have a social media image of reality may seem that equality is already a fact. A full generation of millennials or zeteks that live on social platforms, and their opinions are created by algorithms, see quite a few content about equality and the power of women. Additionally, feminist slogans are instrumentally utilized in corporate marketing for the sale of goods and services. Since quite a few this kind of content reaches them, equality seems fundamentally obvious. The second thing is that these young people didn't gotta fight for equality. The right to own property, vote, own credit card or work right seems apparent to them. Moreover, they may truly not endure discrimination due to the fact that they are simply besides young. According to a breakthrough survey by an American economist, Nobel Prize laureate in the economics of 2023, prof. Claudia Goldin, actual inequalities actually hit women at the time of birth of the first child. That is why Confederate voters who are 20 years old and do not yet have children do not see inequality. due to the fact that possibly girls learn better at school and play ball the same way. They see influencers on Instagram, and they hear about femaler, while severe inequalities begin later. Goldin examined data from 200 years and confirmed, among another things, where the pay gap comes from, indicating that it is most of all due to having children, uneven burdens and caring duties. Therefore, women are referred to as "penalty for motherhood" due to the fact that in employers' opinion women are considered inferior workers. They can vanish at any time and go on maternity leave, later educational leave, etc. Many inequalities were revealed by the pandemic erstwhile it was mainly women who had to quit their work completely or partially due to the fact that individual had to take care of the children. These were not only stereotypical elections, they were besides economical elections: due to the fact that a man usually earns more. The resignation of a female was economically rational.

The question is, how do you come out of this apparent certainty of equality, from this comfortable belief that life on the net is real, while real problems stay in the foreground? On the 1 hand: how to educate, but besides how to “sell” the data you talk about, how to show it to our decision-makers and decision-makers, so that they realize how crucial they are, but besides what do they give to us as individual women, as a community or as an economy? The question is, what language do you talk to those who are able to form the law so that this equality of chance is real and that equalization of opportunities in many areas can happen? And last – how effectively is the right to communicate and enforce?

I have a chapter on law and paradoxically, in addition to reproductive rights, we have beautiful good laws in Poland and Europe, which fundamentally warrant equality. The problem is that they are not implemented due to the fact that society and institutions do not accept them. This is the case, for example, in cases of force against women, erstwhile police or prosecutors ignore home violence, due to the fact that it is inactive considered to be a private matter, which should play – as the Catholic Church in Poland believes – at the household level.This is simply a postulate from the second wave of feminism, erstwhile feminists said, "Private is public." We want you to step into the private sphere and defend us.

When it comes to ways of translating equality, I effort to talk the language of benefit. I besides talk the language of economics and data, due to the fact that in an age of algorithmic manipulation, you gotta go back to the basics, which is the truth. In the book, I show Poland against the background of Europe, but besides against the background of the States and the world, I compare where we are, what is our wage gap, how many women work, what assets they have. I remind you of the survey by prof. Agnieszka Chłoń-Domińczak of the Warsaw School of Economics, who has been doing SHARE 50+ investigation on the state of Polish society for years. Of these, you can see that poorness in Poland has the face of an old woman, due to the fact that all these inequalities accumulate throughout life. large women live, gain less, have bigger breaks at work, are affected by a pay gap, have a lower retirement age. Often, they do not work professionally and spend their lives doing free, invisible care work.

There are generations of women who are worth voting for and justice. Only these stories – erstwhile we look around, we perceive carefully, it seems that many fish – combined with hard data give us a fuller image of the scale of inequality. This combination reveals life as it is, the actual inequality and its practical, everyday effects, which we do not cover here colored and stylized for needs social media History. Is the real image acceptable today?

Therefore, in the book I tell real stories, I effort to compose about circumstantial women and individual stories, and then translate it into a broader background. As a journalist, I know that storytelling goes to people's hearts and minds more than hard statistics. But at the same time, I think present people who are looking for answers to why we are experiencing specified disturbances request answers rooted in facts. It is said that we are surviving in a age of disruption due to the fact that there are economic, political, social changes, we are experiencing a climate disaster. In addition, large shocks supply rapid, unregulated technological development, making everything change: from the way we communicate, how we consume information, through how we buy, learn, experience entertainment. All spheres of our reality are undergoing a gigantic change. On this background it is worth looking at a feminist change, i.e. a change in the social roles of women and men.

When societies present yearn for peace and predictability, the counter-revolution turns against women. due to the fact that it is easier to fight “gender” than to reverse climate change or to deal with migrations resulting from it. That is why I am looking at the anti-feminist cofka as part of something bigger, an component of the crisis of democracy, those social shocks that we are feeling. due to the fact that erstwhile I see that anti-female billionaire populists are winning and that women and unprivileged people are voting for them, I don't see these voters as simple citizens without knowing where their business is, but I effort to reflect on what their choices are. prof. Arlie Russell Hochschild in a large book Aliens in their own country. Anger and Regret of the American RightShe watched what was behind these motivations, those decisions. What motivated Trump voters in 2016? This question is valid present everywhere: what motivates Confederate voters, Le Pen or AfD? I think that in order to find answers, we request to go back to economics and data, and I think that we as elites, journalists, researchers, politicians, more broadly: the political class, request to get a conscience check.