The sestras talk to the celebrated Polish author about the war in Ukraine and Polish-Ukrainian relations 3 years from the beginning of full-scale Russian aggression.
It started at the Budometer.
Olga Pakosz: Do you remember where you were erstwhile the war began?
Andrzej Stasiuk: Here, I think. It was early spring, so I didn't go anywhere. This is where it started. For us.
What were you doing?
Nothing. I've been checking the Internet.
Did you call someone? You have friends in Ukraine...
I was more of an net contact. A fewer days later, I spoke to my friend Marcin Piotrowski from Gorajec. He said he was already on the border. I said, “What are you doing?” And he said, “Come and see.” I went for a week, and then I sat there, like, 3 weeks with them. And that's erstwhile the war started for me. I first stood on the border at the Budometer and saw her.
What was there?
Nothing, nothing. On the Ukrainian side there were full whistles, nothing there. On the Polish side – border crossing, buildings, but besides whistles to the horizon. And I saw on the Ukrainian side respective 1000 women with children standing in line, and the men who walked them back to their cars on foot. Then, with Marcin Piotrowski and the full “Folkowisco” foundationI spent about a period in different places. I was leaving, doing things. That's erstwhile the war started for me.
What were you doing there?
Martin rapidly rented a large warehouse off the border. We received quite a few aid from the West – primarily food, clothing, everything we needed. We drove it to Ukraine and took women and children back as shortly as we could.
The nearest reception point was about four, possibly 5 kilometers from the passage. There was a school where refugees could stay, and that's where we carried them.
I had an amazing experience there. I felt like a man who's been on the road for 2 weeks, or hiding somewhere before, might stink. Like in the heat of a car, this human odor spreads.
And 1 day, a bus full of potatoes arrived in “Folkowiska” from Berlin. any lefties, any freaks from Berlin, brought back a couple of tons of potatoes in an old bus wreck. Of course they came in handy.
Where did your commitment to aid the Ukrainian army begin?
From Zenk. He's the 1 who came up with the full thing, started this foundation, due to the fact that he's a very social person, a very cool guy. And he took me as a “known mouth” – simply. That's how it started. We started collecting money first. It utilized to be easier, now it's harder.
Lukasz Gagulski / PAPAndrzej Stasiuk at a gathering with readers during the 25th global Book Fair in Krakow, 2022.
It's not a large foundation. We don't send hundreds of cars. We're raising funds for one, 2 pick-ups, military equipment, and now we're organizing uniforms. We go with aid and deliver it ourselves so that there are no intermediaries along the way. This aid is hard – somewhere along the way something is lost, people do not trust, there is corruption. Let's get this straight.
We have our 1 battalion, “Donbas”, in Slaviansk. erstwhile we get the equipment, the cars, whatever it takes, it's just Zenek or me and him going straight to the boys. We get to 1 platoon and bring what we need. That's how we work.
And how frequently do you drive? erstwhile was the last time you were here?
A long time. And the first time I was in Donbasa a year and a half ago. Now Zenek's gone. I got sick, so I didn't go with him. Zenek arranged 1 car for the convoy. They besides utilized to drive and organize medical training for soldiers in Donbasa. The boys from peculiar units came from Poland and showed soldiers how to supply medical assistance. It was expected to be very useful. That's what we did.
Just, you know, it's a tiny foundation. This is not any large manufacture – we rise money...
Yeah, but you wouldn't gotta do that at all.
Who's gonna do that? Exactly. And individual has to do it – that's all.
But you said it's getting harder and harder to rise money.
He sits down, the atmosphere sits due to the fact that people are tired. They don't care about the war, ma'am. The war is “cool” at the beginning, as the sensation is, something new.
Too fast, besides good, besides beautiful
It is not the first time I heard from Poles that you are tired of war. Why?
They're tired of the subject. Tired of TV, the Internet, the fact that there's inactive war. any fresh war would be useful, you know?
But there is inactive a war somewhere – Israel, Lebanon, right?
Now they focus more on the war in Israel. It's natural for people to get tired of war. I was fascinated and shocked, as Poles threw themselves to help, with specified openness. I didn't anticipate this from that damn nation.
I saw it with my own eyes. It was besides damn fast, besides beautiful, besides good to hold on long. But you had to usage it while it lasted.
On the Polish side, on the Budometer, it was a miracle, ma'am. Hundreds of people stood at the border and helped: Boy scouts, non-harvests, hippies, freaks, any women from the farm home wheel, hot soup in boilers. I'm talking due to the fact that it was beautiful, truly beautiful. But I knew it would end someday. That's what Poles are like.
But what?
Emotional. Emotions all the time. Emotions and then fatigue comes. Emotional, hysterical sometimes. No mania, depression, and then it ends.
And erstwhile it ends, what? Is there going to be specified indifference?
I don't know what will happen, I'm not a prophet. There are things I can do: rise money, sometimes go, support people... But I'm not going to do large politics.
I have friends in Ukraine, I like Ukraine. Lives close the Ukrainian border, Ukrainian village. With my name they always laugh, say, “You are a Pole, but with that name you are different.” My father comes from the Belarusian border, from Podlasie. Belarus is already on the another side of the border. Everything was mixed up there. The household was partially unattached. The church in my father's village is an old unic church. It's a border confusion. But you know, I don't want the Russians to come here. This is our private Polish case. I don't want to.
Do you think they'll come?
They've always come in, they won't sit long. “ To whom is Russia bordered? With whomever he wants". I went to Russia, I know her a little, and I know what this country looks like. I don't want the shadow of this powerful sinister mess to remainder here.
In 1 of the last interviews, you said that Russia will always be and always will be Europe, and we will always be in between.
Right. Although now there's a small more chance that possibly Ukraine will be in between. This is our business, ma'am. How much can you live in the shadow of that cruel giant? Let this Ukraine relieve us a little.
This aid is simply a reaction – friendly, but besides rational, pragmatic. We are publishers of Ukrainian writers, we know them, we are friends with most of them. It's natural for us to do something. What can you do? Start doing something and act – that's it.
You're not going to Ukraine to support any artistic projects?
Nope. I had a large task with the "Hajdamaks" before, but almost the full squad went to the army.
I didn't know that.
Yeah. Andrij Sliepcow, “Slipyj”, from the guitar, is simply a sniper, even training another snipers. Roman Dubonis, trumpeter, rides dense equipment somewhere. Sashko Jarmoła, the lead singer, organizes a large logistics assistance in Przemyśl. The boys are in trouble. I met them erstwhile – we played a performance together in Poland. They couldn't make it due to the fact that they had to have approval to leave. I remember erstwhile we utilized to meet at concerts and they would show pictures on their phones: “It was my boy who was born”, “and this is my girlfriend.”
Now we're sitting together, and they show pictures of Russian dead bodies, war, they say, "That's what we caught," "That's what we burned." They talk about it as normally, in a calm speech as they utilized to about their regular lives.
Are you writing about the war?
In the last book... No, the erstwhile communicative I wrote 5 or six years ago is about war, but about planet War II, about my father's village, evidently invented. How “Barbarossa” moved, how the Germans moved on the Russians. It was a large novel, and in the last book there's a lot about the Ukrainian border, there's a lot about Russia. Actually, fuck, it's all about war. She was expected to be about something else, but she turned out to be okay.
kpzfoto / Alamy Stock photograph / PAPAndrzej Stasiuk in 2015
Experience of Civilization Fall
Speaking of Russia, do you want you could go there?
I was fascinated by this country in a negative sense, due to the fact that it's a terrible, apocalyptic country. He's scary all the time, but I liked it. I never went to Russia on purpose.
Where were you?
In the Book. I wouldn't go to Moscow. But he's already reading it to the north, in the Zabaykal country. I have always traveled through Russia to Central Asia: Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan. I went to Russia on intent erstwhile due to the fact that I had a friend in Irkutsk who was a consul, I had never been there before. He said: “Come and see the real Russia. What, you're going to Moscow? It's g***o, not Russia. You gotta go to the “mush ”. ” I went to Irkutsk. Then I think six, 7 times I drove through Russia, always coming back through Russia. So I have any thought about this real Russia, not stupid Moscow. It's not Russia.
What, were there roads?
Well, 1 of those. 1 main and everyone's driving it, all the police are standing there, all the traffic is going that way. But this space fascinated me. You drive, you drive, and you just can't see the end. You didn't truly go to the Mongolian border, you have 7 more days of driving alone. I was driving and I was driving. Russia is simply a nightmare, there's nothing there. It is only in Altaj that something interesting is happening.
Were you in Altai and over Bajkal?
I was. The Russians have something to do with this Baikal. Large lake, lots of water, deep water and clean cool, only the edges empty. But for them, it's sacred. Sometimes you talked to the Russian police or at the border, they asked where we were going. I said: “By Russia. How are things in Russia?’ And they said, “Baikal!” Oh, Bajkał – and everyone knew that this was the reason to go to Russia. A fairy tale. I've been there twice. We utilized to talk to Russian borderers on the border with Russia. 1 says, “Oh, Bajkał!” and the another says, “Look, they are coming over Bajkał, and we, like these ch**e, will stand here.” A fairy tale to them is sacred, completely absurd.
But erstwhile you were driving, was that any kind of local thing?
Yeah, 'cause you gotta sleep somewhere, sometimes stand for a while.
And how do you justice these people?
I don't know how to justice them, but nothing bad always happened to me there. 1 crucial thing: erstwhile you drink alcohol, God forbid you go down to politics and history, due to the fact that then the problem begins. This is simply a wall. erstwhile they tried to beat us up somewhere in Ural due to the fact that they invited us to a hotel. It was us, why not – any party, individual there celebrated birthdays, very good people. I was driving with a friend, Krzysztof Wednesday, a author who speaks large Russian. And he slipped into politics. Kirzysiek is specified an honest and honest man who wants to educate people. And something about Stalin started talking about these Stalinic crimes. And I say, “Krzysiek, calm down, see what happens in their eyes?” It was that they almost wanted to beat us – specified thirty-year-old bulls. We were saved by the Russian women who were there. Tough women. They apologized this morning, sober, hungover.
Bartosz Krupa / East NewsKrzysztof Wednesday, philosopher, author and traveller
It is impossible – politics is an insurmountable wall. These minds, our Polish and Russian, are completely different. They're changed, destroyed by propaganda.
Is that what happened then?
Well, before the war. Now it's only possible to go to Russia on a tank, I think. My experience is that they are kind, open, always aid – if they are sober, of course.
Do they drink a lot?
When you enter a village behind Ural – i.e. a full roz**a – and you want to know something, you will not find anyone sober there. He just doesn't. If someone's on the street, he's fucking unconscious. Women who are sober run distant due to the fact that they've never seen a stranger. This is the experience of specified a fall of civilization.
It's unusual that the consciousness is zero or foggy, but they're going to war...
Well, what do they have outside the war? As you look at the Russian “dubbit”, it is poverty, poverty, physical and moral decline. Civilization in a mess, human values – full decay. War gives them any value. We may not be rich, but at least let them fear us. They have a immense complex towards the West.
Speaking of brainwashing. respective times in Poland I met a love for large and “magutian” Russian literature. What do you think we're reading now? Does this request to be "scanned" for a while?
No, no, scan no. I think I've read all the Russian literature I was expected to read. I read a lot, especially erstwhile we were spending something in Russia. But erstwhile you read the literature like that, you see things. As you read Dostoevsky, Fyodorov – a prominent, mad philosopher, had an thought to resurrect all mankind – or early texts by Płatonov, it is all lined up with the Western complex. A mixture of superiority complex with inferiority complex.
In Dostoyevsky's is simply a continuous filipika against the West. "We are the greatest, the greatest, and the West does not deserve to survive." Platonov – similar. Even in Fyodorov, who has educated generations of thinkers, it is the same. A large philosophical work, on the border of madness and beauty, but the full is against the West.
A tale of the sanctity of Russia that will save the world. And then you follow Ural and you think, “First save yourself, though a little”
This rhizome is simply a "dub", a broken mentality – it is something frightening. Deep, full self-deception.
Speaking of which, are we expected to read this or not?
Do whatever you want. What am I, any dictator to forbid someone? You can read it, but now you read it completely different. For a thinking, intelligent man, Russian literature or culture present is simply a completely different reading. You can read to realize who the Russians are and what they usage the literature for. due to the fact that for them culture – this celebrated Russian culture and literature – is another weapon. A tool to fight the West and build their national ego. I think so.
There are good Russians?
I never met the bad Russians there. It's like Jurko Andrukovych said on the occasion of his book “Moscoviada”: “You know what, Rusek is cool, but if you put them together, it's a fuck-up.” I think this is the shortest review. As people, they're cool. But as a society – awful. This is not a society, this is simply a controlled herd. I think there's deep wisdom in what Jurko said. 1 Russian – a friend, open, kind. But if they get together, fuck off. As individuals, yes, but as a society... Can't you see what this society is doing? He's blind, deaf and murderous.
The most European country
This war has changed the way different countries, societies, people are perceived.
Once in Hungary, on the Hungarian-Ukrainian border, we spent time in a hotel. It went down to Ukraine, and that was the '90s. Hungary, satisfied with its self, says in Hungarian: “No, Ukrainians are not Europeans.” Now, please, what does Orban do and what does Ukraine do? Ukrainians are like us. We are more on the border – a unusual mix of East and West. But at the minute Ukraine is the most European country – due to what it does, what it costs, and due to the fact that it had courage. This is the most European country. He's spilling blood for Western values. Not only does he shed blood, he bleeds heavily.
How about your gun? Returning to the fatigue of this war: I heard Poles talking about fatigue. I say the Ukrainians fight for you too. "No, not for us, but for yourself."
This is simply a generation that does not remember the Russian army in Poland. Today, the Russian troops are denying it, but I saw Russian units in Poland. In Warsaw, they stood guard. It was a abroad army in my country. Young people have no thought how bizarre the circles of past likes to spin.
Poles changed during this war, but I remember that it was not an open society.
A peasant society.
I'd say it wasn't even that tolerant. erstwhile the war started in Syria, what were the statements on TV, in the media? "We don't want them, we don't want them." And 3 years ago, Poles took Ukrainians to their homes. Is it due to the fact that Ukrainians are very akin to Poles?
I think so. He was little afraid of something unknown, like dark-skinned Islam, than of Ukrainians, with whom we have a lot in common – besides cruel, evil.
Don't you think this war besides helped to take down any of the old traumas?
I think so. Finally, another languages are heard in Poland. This terrible Polish who accompanied a man from birth to death... Now you're going through Kraków, through another cities, and that's great. This helps Polish society. These are free change. Behind the Polish People's Republic, Ukrainians were only “badgers”, and now in social reception, this is no longer the only face of the Ukrainian. There are surviving people, there are surviving Ukrainians just not legendary.
Does it do Polish society good?
Yes, in the long run it opens Poland.
Thanks to the Ukrainians, possibly we can open ourselves up to another immigrations due to the fact that there is no another way.
People come and come, Poland cannot defy it. These are planet tectonic movements, people's wanderings. Ukraine educates us – not Russia.
What fresh Ukrainians bring to Poland?
A lot of things. First, heroism, if you look at this war. We gotta learn from 1 another. With these “Hajdamaks” it felt this way: the same sense of humor, the same irony, on the same waves it was suitable. I am so glad that Ukrainians bring breath to Poland. Breathing something close, but at the same time a small different.
You said you were publishing books of Ukrainian writers. Who is it?
Well, about the most crucial and the biggest: Serhia Żadan, Taras Prochaśka, Jurek Andruchowych. I don't know what Ukrainian is going to be. I'm certain we're waiting for what Serhij will write. due to the fact that he's gonna compose something.
