"We will not be Europe's leader". The General takes on the ambitious plans of the Polish government

Luke Rogojsz, Interia: Emmanuel Macron gave the planet a geopolitical gamechanger?

General Mieczysław Cieniuch, erstwhile Chief of General Staff of the Polish Army: – It's a crucial thing. However, we must realise that the balance of atomic possible between France and Russia It's gone.

It doesn't gotta be, we're talking atomic arsenal. The top weapon is the fear of utilizing it.

- It's true. The point here is not that individual has more rockets, but individual less, due to the fact that this threat of utilizing even 1 of them is what evens out these potentials in the context of a possible conflict.

Are you amazed that France came up with this atomic initiative?

– No, they've already signaled that their atomic possible could be at the disposal of another allied states. However, it remains the subject of financing specified an undertaking and the final decision to usage this weapon.

He said nothing about backing Macron, but on the final decision he was clear: she will belong to the president of France.

– I presume backing would be shared, allied. France could thus increase its atomic possible to defend allied states. However, we would have a situation that backing is common, but an individual decision.

Is that a problem?

– I don't know if anyone curious would agree to this option. But this is simply a solution erstwhile utilizing a atomic umbrella United States It has become at least problematic.

How would France's initiative work in practice? French atomic weapons would be deployed in all European alliance countries? any of them? Just on the flank of the east EU and NATO?

– This is simply a subject for further decision, for now it is simply a political disposition. France has atomic possible in the form of bombs and rockets mounted in bombers and fighters and ballistic missiles mounted on submarines and submarines. There is no problem with the deployment of this arsenal outside France. The problem would be with handling and servicing so distributed after Europe equipment. It would besides make additional advanced costs.

Poland will not take place in France, large Britain or Germany. We will not be Europe's leader. It's a waste of money and organizational effort to race these countries. We can't do this right now.

So what's it expected to look like?

– The best solution in an economical sense, especially since the final decision would inactive belong to the president of France, would be to leave the arsenal in France.

How much the declaration by the president of France changes for Poland? What is the scale of this proposal? Comparable to the presence of American troops in Poland?

– I wouldn't put it together with me or, much less, resist. The United States has not yet resigned from NATO, they inactive have obligations to their allies. That's all we've been watching from the site lately. Washingtonu, may inactive be any kind of geopolitical game aimed at achieving circumstantial objectives. However, we in Europe, in Poland, approach it as if the doorknob had already fallen, the decision was irrevocable, and we were late with a reaction of decades. We're turning on the panic spiral ourselves, and it's besides early for that.

Are you sure? World’s top Power Appeases in Everything Vladimir Putin, and the assaulted Ukraine Cuts off weapons and money and tries to force him to make peace. Europeans know Putin's neo-imperial urges, it's hard not to beat the alarm.

– Yes, the situation is serious, and we know Russian appetites well. I hope that the very conciliatory approach of the Americans to the Russian authorities can change as peace negotiations progress. president Trump can number on far-reaching concessions from president Putin, and this does not gotta happen. Then the American reaction can be more beneficial to Ukraine. This is the beginning of a global process whose end consequence is hard to predict. The crucial thing is that our country is in the right place, and that's our chance.

France is 1 of the 2 atomic powers in Europe. The second is United Kingdom. Should we anticipate a step like this Macro shortly after the British?

– This is possible. At this moment, the main discussions concern various types of coalitions – especially alleged volunteer coalitions, which would supply Ukraine with safety guarantees after signing a peace with Russia – but there may inactive be many things on the table. This is simply a historical time, and the situation is highly dynamic. Moreover, Europe seems to be waking up to action after first shock. Strategically, the key that Britain in these hard times goes hand in hand with European Unionwhich brings benefits to both sides. This may even lay the foundation for the British's return to the EU, which would be a dream scenario.

What are the benefits for both sides?

- Scare away. Only a united, solidarity-based Europe is strong and has the possible to deter. erstwhile it comes to the war in Ukraine or the future of Europe's security, deterrence is everything. It must be credible and practical.

Macron with his atomic initiative is for Cream Reliable, respectful? Putin won't think it's a bluff, convinced that at the time of his attempt, the French president wouldn't dare scope for the atomic button anyway?

Let's not forget the United States. due to the fact that although the American administration's fresh moves are of large concern, it doesn't prejudge anything yet. Even if American-European relations are further degraded, it is impossible for the United States to abandon Europe completely and it will not happen soon. Therefore, this contractual Putin – this is not about personality, the present Putin will replace another Putin in any time, this is the specificity of the Russian strategy of power – will always gotta take into account that the determination to usage atomic weapons against Russia and the threat resulting from this will end in full war and the liquidation of the Russian state. specified a conflict would not end with the exchange of individual atomic strikes between France and the United Kingdom and Russia, but would affect further atomic powers that would enter the war sooner or later.

You mentioned the United States. How does Macron's proposal translate into their position and function in Europe?

– Macro sent a clear message to the United States that we are not powerless and helpless, we have our ideas and these ideas are detrimental to America.

Why Unfavorable? The United States would be delighted if Europe full assumed the burden of safety in this part of the world, which would give Americans the chance to focus on conflict with China.

– Washington would love to cut off the European ballast. Only that it can cut off from it alternatively rhetorically or declaratively than actually. They have nothing to number on.

Trump likes to prove the impossible doesn't exist.

Trump is besides a businessman. A ruthless, but inactive a businessman. America has tremendous economical and political interests in Europe. And America, although it is simply a global power, does not own the full world. He has his limitations and problems. Overcoming these restrictions and solving these problems requires coalitions. A superpower isn't large if it's lonely. This besides applies to America. Its closest coalition has always been, inactive is and always will be Europe, especially its western part, as well as Japan, Australia and New Zealand. Whatever happens, they're America's default allies due to the fact that they're 1 and the same civilization.

Macro sent a clear message to the United States that we are not powerless and helpless, we have our ideas, and these ideas are unfavorable to America.

Macro wanted to send a clear message more to Trump or Putin?

– Both. However, this is also, above all, a message to Europeans that we are with you, that we are solid, that we are ready to share. And we have an thought for the future.

This decision of France seal Macron's position as political player number 1 on the Old Continent? As the “Head of Europe” and individual Henry Kissinger wanted on the another side of the Atlantic, 1 leader to call in the event of a crisis?

– I don't know if this Macron position is sealed yet. The European institutions will not let anyone to take power out of their hands. Of course, Macron's announcement is welcome by all, but if it comes to applicable implementation, the European institutions will start fighting for their prerogatives and political influences. Macron won't be easy. France must remember that being a leader is primarily commitments and costs, and additionally the request to be very knowing with partners. We see that America has failed.

How, in the context of what Macron has been doing in fresh weeks, to mobilise Europe around the subject of defence, but besides what is happening on the United States – Europe is assessing Poland's attitude and actions?

– Sending soldiers on military missions is always a political decision and is made by politicians, taking into account their various interests. We're not full aware of all this business. However, if specified a decision had already been made, another issue is how prepared the military are and how well they will implement it. So far, I feel positive, we have respective open options on the table and the option to choose the right one. We inactive have time to make the final decision, depending on the improvement of the situation, and in peculiar its applicable aspects.

We are the largest army in Europe, we spend the most on defence proportionally in NATO, we were right about the threat from Russia, the defence card was expected to be our ticket to the political First League in the EU. But at the minute of trial, it seems that we stand aside and give the field to old powers like France and Britain.

– Poland will not take the place of France, large Britain or Germany. We will not be Europe's leader. It's a waste of money and organizational effort to race these countries. This is not going to work right now. We should focus on the economy, political cohesion and good state organisation. Then the another roles that we'd like to cut shorts will come by themselves in time. The most crucial thing will be to prepare the state to counter military threats, but besides asymmetric threats across their full palette. Care for the economy and the public's willingness to defy threats is the best deterrent force. And vice versa, weakness is very advanced on the threat list.

Donald Tusk announced that Poland would not send troops to Ukraine. But it is clear that we have a presidential campaign. If France truly dispels the atomic umbrella over allies, will the Polish government change its position on the stabilisation mission after the elections?

– specified a change is very possible. It would besides be easy to justify it politically. In any case, Poland must be active in the stabilisation mission, due to the fact that all logistics, all supply of this possible European quota, would be carried out by the territory of our country. We won't wash our hands from this mission. And I see no reason to wash my hands.

An expanding number of Poles disagree with you on this issue. The IBRiS poll for “Events” of Polsat shows that 3 quarters of Poles do not want to see our troops present in Ukraine.

– We are heavy active in the Ukrainian cause, we have done a lot about it, we have donated quite a few military equipment, we train Ukrainian soldiers, we supply humanitarian, medical, financial assistance. Suddenly, erstwhile we come to the end of the war, we say: we do not want to participate in it, we do not want to have any influence on it. That could prevent us from doing our business.

Someone could say why this almost 5% GDP for defence, why the largest army in Europe, erstwhile at the time of the historical breakthrough we like others to do our job?

– Yes, it is simply a conclusion that is rather powerfully in this situation. The next point is that for 3 years we spent adequate money to aid Ukraine to volunteer to give the palm of precedence to others. That would be illogical. Therefore, it seems to me that sooner or later we will be active in this stabilisation mission, we will be in the “coalition of the willing”. We're besides large and besides crucial a player to abruptly disappear, hide from everyone.