Daria Różańska-Danisz: Why does a given carnivalist charge to TVP?
Counselor Peter Zemła: Enters. I'm an idealist, and erstwhile I think any mission is important, and I can be useful in it, I just get involved.
Pro publico bono?
Yeah, I don't get paid.
Although we all know how much they've earned over the years: the Dutch, the Kurskis, Kłek, Olechowski, Pereira and others.
That's why I don't get paid. I realize that any public opinion can approach us with reserve, especially after TVP was treated earlier.
They even called you Jaruzelski.
It was politicians who compared me to Jaruzelski, who kept saying that I acted like I was in a state of war. I'm not even certain my parents knew each another at the time. I was born Prime Minister of Mazowiecki.
In the breakthrough of 1989.
Yeah. If 1 or the another associate feels better, due to the fact that he will call me Jaruzelski and the individual who is the organization president of that associate will pat him on the back and say that he did a good job, I will not stand in his way. It doesn't affect my well-being, and it can improve him. Be my guest.
Are you having fun?
I wouldn't call it fun. I'm trying to have a affirmative approach to life, see positives, not focus on negatives.
In the first day of Christmas, you said, "There is no more beautiful feeling for me as a lawyer than erstwhile my client regains his freedom. My client since 19 December is the word, and in front of you, besides on public television, this freedom regains". Really?
I truly do.
Isn't that a small naive?
It's not for me to judge. It seems to me that with age people cease to be naive and become cynical.
They live, they experience.
I want to think of myself as an idealist. I think it's a beautiful quality. On the another hand, I truly think that freedom of speech has returned to TVP on December 20.
Your client is not Minister Sienkiewicz, is he just a word?
That's right. Although, of course, I must add – with all due respect to the minister, due to the fact that he called me for this function – I am on TVP to check the board, then the TVP liquidator. Not to run TVP cases, to influence what's on the air.
On the another hand, as a supervisory board, we have appointed editor Tomasz Sygut as president. This is the first but gigantic step towards restoring freedom of speech. And if the liquidator wants to make a decision about which the board of directors requires approval, we're investigating it. We agree or not. We're looking into people who run the company, but we're not moving it ourselves.
Are you in the TVP building all day?
I'm not there all day. I run my own firm all the time, and that's something I keep up with. I didn't go to TVP for the money.
You work from dawn to night?
I'm certain my calendar has been much more filled since December 19. But I inactive go to court, I represent clients, and I'm on Voronica sometimes.
And sometimes you have time for yourself?
Not much, but it's a minute in my life.
Let's talk about the scenes. On December 19th, the telephone rings, they propose you become the president of the TVP Supervisory Board?
I knew that a fewer days earlier. 1 of the people who was active in the media change process called me and we set up a meeting. And there's a proposal.
How long did you have?
I made my decision on the same day. I decided due to the fact that I firmly believe that what is now happening in the public media is an improvement in the situation that urgently required crucial improvement.
Minister Sienkiewicz called?
I won't betray the Personals. I got a call from a individual active in the process of the transformation of public media, went to a meeting, heard a proposal, thought it over, and in the evening I let you know that I agree.
What were you considering? It was certain that you'd be a more public figure by now, you'd gotta defy the charges.
I was certain I could at least become a recognizable individual for a while.
As a lawyer, I run criminal cases, and I'm utilized to being either liked or hated. As a lawyer, I'm besides trying to defy the charges, but my clients.
Some time ago, I defended the suspect for execution in an appeal court. The parents of the victim—i.e. victims of the murder— performed in this process as reinforcement prosecutors. The line of defence that we were pursuing was based, among another things, on the fact that the victim of the execution was the first to usage force against my client. This was crucial in terms of determining who and against whom the right to the essential defence was granted.
After this trial, the lawyer for the auxiliary prosecutors – an excellent Warsaw lawyer – congratulated me on my speeches, thanked me for fighting in the courtroom, and the parents of the victim of this killing culturally said goodbye to me. I firmly believe that there will come a time erstwhile we as a society will be able to treat ourselves in this way, even if we have very conflicting views or interests.
So we can sit down and talk despite the differences?
That we would be able to talk and that the difference of view would not make us no longer respect each other. I'm professionally different in views – most frequently with prosecutors – but that doesn't mean I don't respect them. I besides know that prosecutors – although surely not everyone – respect me, even though I effort to show the mistakes they made in the preparatory proceedings.
I realize my dream is possibly unrealistic. But I want it was. And that individual has political views from the other pole does not find that he accuses the another individual of deficiency of patriotism, betrayal of his homeland.
I'm not a professional political observer. I am curious in politics as much as I think any citizen who has an active electoral right should be curious in politics.
But I find it hard to accept as a man accustomed to cultural discussions that individual accuses individual of deficiency of patriotism only due to his political views.
Have you been accused of deficiency of patriotism?
Nope. After 20 December I had many situations erstwhile people approached me and assured me of their support, they congratulated me. On the another hand, there was quite a few hatred on the Internet.
I went to lunch erstwhile in the center of Warsaw. It was 11 January, the day of the march of free Poles. 1 gentleman asked me if I was ashamed. erstwhile I said no, he stated that I had no honor, then he left the restaurant, forgetting to pay. Fortunately, the waitress caught up with him and paid.
It was 1 unpleasant situation "in reality". It didn't ruin me. In Polish public life there are people who have experienced the hatred much more.
Are you saying he's tough?
I think so. The average situation is that I'm leaving the area and individual says I'm a liar, I'm confabulating. There is small knowing in society for the function of defender in the criminal trial. And I never lied to the court – first of all, the bar ethics do not let it, secondly, a good defender is simply a reliable defender. Lies don't build credibility.
Did they delegate you to enter TVP, or did you volunteer?
I knew we'd be at the TVP office that day with president Sygut. But the fact that politicians were abruptly on the 10th level amazed us. But, well, somehow, it had to be solved. I went out and tried to talk. I have the impression that the Members were not very curious in the conversation, although I must say that there was 1 associate who seemed to be a very cultural lady, that was how she behaved. Unfortunately, I don't know her name.
I was hoping this wouldn't happen, but, well, it happened. It is hard objectively not to admit that public media since 2016 supported an option that was in power. I'm not a medical expert, but it would be hard to convince me that this is reliable journalism. I realize the failure of this average can origin intense emotions.
How do you like the news on TVP now?
We first watched "19.30" in the studio on Voronica and stated that the service was boring. But that's precisely what you should anticipate from public media. The basis of reliable journalism is to separate information from comments.
The information service should be primarily information and I anticipate it as a viewer.
Were you amazed as a spectator that in the evening edition of "19.30" no mention was made of refusing to enter fresh TVP authorities in the KRS? People lacked it.
Let us reverse the situation: imagine that in the company where you work, the president of the supervisory board says in an interview with another media: it was incorrect that it was not shown, and it is good that something else was shown.
But I'm asking you as a citizen, a viewer.
But, editor, I wasn't invited here as a citizen. It's not like you found me on the street due to the fact that I was walking by and you decided to ask me what I think of the 7:30 show.
Are you afraid that he's about to go into the world, that the president of the TVP supervisory board is commenting on the work of journalists?
It's not a substance of fear, it's a substance of principle. It is not the president of the supervisory board, not the chairman, not the liquidator, but the writer is liable for what is on the air. I hope the times erstwhile things were different are over.
Do you think that the public media appointed by the Minister of Culture from a peculiar party, with circumstantial views, have a chance to be public media – independent?
Madam editor, I will take an example from a very different barrel: a delegation of a justice to a higher court. Over the years, this institution has been treated as something that allowed the justice to test himself in a small different realities. On the basis of this delegation, the judge, if any, was first posted to a higher court, and later was appointed to that position, after the adoption of a proper, constitutionally consistent KRS.
And since autumn 2015, this institution – not in all cases – has been utilized to bring its people into court, to reward its judges. The law is besides people who apply it. I have no objection to the application of the law by Minister Sienkiewicz.
On the another hand, I am a strong supporter of lawmaking in specified a way that those with bad intentions cannot afford this right of abuse. On the another hand, the law always applies a certain man and he has any intentions. Human factors cannot be eliminated from the application of the law.
So, your editor, that earlier board of directors, the TVP Supervisory Board was elected by the National Media Council...
We all know who was part of the National Media Council. Politicians.
That's 1 thing. And the second – the effect we saw on the air. In my opinion, as a lawyer, the situation of public media needs to be healed by government too.
How do you see that?
Legislative changes are a substance for parliamentarians.
There are voices from many lawyers, constitutionalists, or the Helsinki Human Rights Foundation that taking over TVP was illegal.
Yeah, I know. I am convinced that Minister Sienkiewicz acted within the limits of the law. For a lawyer who goes to court, the fact that a peculiar situation can be judged in 2 or 3 different ways legally is normal. It is not that the only legal dispute present concerns whether the Minister of Culture and National Heritage could usage his ownership powers as a 100% shareholder.
The more complex society is, the more complicated the law is. It always has been, it always will be. No 1 erstwhile regulated the usage of drones or traffic by law, there was no need.
Let's go back to your thought of healing public media.
I don't have a prescription ready. I can give you at least a twelve provisions of the Code of Criminal Procedure, which should be repealed. The penal code or the executive penal code. If the law is imperfect, it is frequently possible for the individual who applies it to destruct it by applying the law.
Do you believe in the Minister of Culture, manager Tomasz Sygut and journalists who are now making public media?
Absolutely. I have the conviction – supported by reflection – that everyone who works on TVP wants to do reliable journalism and good tv on another elements of the mission. TVP is not only information services, although for this reason it may be – if individual wants to usage it – tempting prey for politics.
You believe that even if the way you call is imperfect...
...imperfect from the position of de lege ferenda's remarks, due to the fact that de lege lata is legal.
But delight let the readers know what's going on.
Good. It is likely that the way in which members of supervisory boards and boards of companies are appointed requires a statutory adjustment. I don't feel like I'm the expert in speaking out. On the another hand, I am convinced that what Minister Sienkiewicz is doing, what we are doing as a supervisory board, what tv Poland is doing now, whose work I am most pleased to observe, is changing in the right direction.
So you put boredom on the plus side?
In my opinion, separating information from comments viewers may find boring, especially compared to the "News" of 2016-23, but this is an absolutely basic principle.
There are allegations that there are frequently less MPs on TVP who are now opposed.
Members who are presently in opposition do not want to talk for TVP. I'm talking about hundreds in the Sejm. I saw a image of Mr Ozoba seeing the TVP cube on the microphone and saying that he would not talk until the fresh authorities were included in the KRS. 1 cannot force anyone to talk for Polish Television.
TVP ratings, the main news service – "19.30" – decreased significantly.
Whether much – I would argue, but surely noticeable. But does anyone talk present about how ratings dropped in January 2016?
The full share of all TVP channels in 2016 was almost 30% (Nielsen data). That's almost 6% little than in 2015.
I think the situation is comparable to that of January 2016. Then any viewers turned distant from TVP. Second, let's give tv any time. I realize ratings are important, but it's more crucial to carry out the mission. This distinguishes TVP from commercial media – ratings are not the only indicator to measure TVP
Is there problem financing public media?
So far it seems to me that tv Poland was a small like the helpless kid of rich parents who always "saw money", and abruptly this kid was orphaned and disinherited. Let's give this company any time to control to fresh tracks. It's only been a month.
How do you make good tv under these circumstances?
I don't know the answer to that question. But I see we're doing well. How to make good tv should be asked by chief Sygut.
Less people to hire?
If you make little money, it seems less. I think that many of the expenses that charged TVP were absolutely unnecessary.
You don't pay for hundreds?
For example. Just don't treat TVP as a private farm. That in itself will give immense savings.
Is that enough?
At this stage, I am incapable to answer this question honestly. I am convinced that tv will proceed to function and supply reliable information again. He's already doing it.
And TVP's going to connect, not divide?
I hope so, and I believe this is part of the mission. My heart is free of hate. Although I have the impression that the hearts of any of our fellow citizens from hatred are not free. I think TVP is besides partially liable for this hatred in hearts.
The court dismissed another application to include in the National Court registry the liquidation of TVP and Polish Radio. What now, a lawsuit?
Yes, a complaint against the court clerk's ruling. As far as I know, it's already been folded.
What happens if the court retains its position? An appeal?
There'll be an appeal. Let the court decide.
We all know that this is simply a process that will extend over time.
Yes, and the resolutions of the general gathering of shareholders until a court in a peculiar way of trial against TVP has disenfranchised them, are binding. Just like that. This is the thesis of the ultimate Court resolution III CZP/13/13.
So you're acting unchanged: the company's authorities don't change, the status, you don't lose your position?
Last time I checked, my ID was inactive working.
So you're having second thoughts?
No, absolutely.
Thomas Sygut isn't the president of TVP right now?
No, due to the fact that the company is in liquidation, so the company has no CEO, no board, no liquidator.
How long can the procedure for annulment of the resolution take?
As regards this, the procedure for annulment may take years.
Don't you have any worries that you'll be acting like a temporary TVP by then?
Nope. Everyone is powerfully active in creating TVP. I don't see TVP as temporary.
But you're at the beginning of the road. Everyone has enthusiasm, most likely a sense of a breakthrough moment, and then everyday life, credits, etc.
Naturally, all journalists who decide to work on TVP are aware of the situation, and yet make specified a decision – in order to carry out the public service mission.
Sometimes I take care of things, knowing that I won't win it until second instance or after the erasure.
Because you feel like you have to?
Yeah, due to the fact that I feel like it's the right thing to do. And sometimes the final triumph comes along the long way of defeat.
How long do you estimation the liquidation of TVP will take?
It would be irresponsible if I were tempted to do so. delight note that the decision to liquidate TVP was made erstwhile the president vetoed the budget bill.
Are you surprised?
I haven't thought about it before. The president has the right to veto.
And he does.
Yeah, he does. However, we must not lose sight of the fact that the decision to liquidate TVP and Polish Radio came after the decision of the President. If a given company is treated in specified a way that it is transferred PLN 2 billion all year and abruptly it is expected that this company will be deprived of backing and it will act the same way. Unfortunately, that is naive.
If I realize Minister Sienkiewicz correctly, the decision to liquidate TVP and Polish Radio was dictated by this. During this time, this makes TVP easier to function.
Your mission on TVP is an episode, you just came here to clean up and get back to the courtroom for good?
I never left the courtroom. I love what I do – I mean to prosecute the profession of lawyer – and this is my thought of myself. On TVP, I met large people, and I think that these relationships will last the test of time, and it's worth it to me.
Is TVP an episode?
I wouldn't like to call TVP an episode.
So, what, a mission?
Yeah. I think my mission to TVP will come to an end, and then I will be able to devote myself to writing cassation, appeal. I gotta connect it today.
Do you have a deadline?
That was the subject of my findings erstwhile I agreed to this function. But, excuse me, I don't want to talk about it right now. I'm certain I won't be keeping that fact a secret erstwhile it does.
