Karol Nawrocki was to be checked 3 times by the service, but only journalists described, among others, the housing scandal, his participation
in combatants or possible pimping. “For years, I have called for the power of issuing certificates to be removed from the hands of the interior safety Agency and the interior safety Agency. And to give this function to an independent body established, like another countries, who besides serves as the National safety Authority. As in another matters, politicians are deaf to these ideas," says Colonel Grzegorz Małecki, diplomat, peculiar services officer, including the State safety Office, the interior safety Agency. In 2016, head of the Intelligence Agency.
Colonel, who has the work of examining candidates for the president of Poland?
Colonel Grzegorz Małecki: – There is no 1 who has specified a work or a right. There is besides no procedure for screening candidates for either the president of Poland or even a Member.
That's absurd.
That's right. There is only 1 procedure, i.e. the submission of mirror statements by candidates. But in fact, it concerns people born before 1 August 1972. To this should be added the statements of property. Trzaskowski and Nawrocki were obliged to do so annually as public servants.
The president shall be given access to classified information upon taking office.
I will say more: the President, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Constitutional Ministers at the time of office, gain access to top secret information.
So we give access to a state secret of the highest importance to a man, although we don't know precisely who he is, what he does, who he works with.
and keep in touch?
Yes, it is. At least present we have the Internet, digital tools and efficient media. This gives us access to cognition that 10, 15 or 20 years ago, erstwhile the same rules were in force, we did not.
The only thing that was being tested was whether we had cognition of this peculiar person
in the safety records.
Candidate Karol Nawrocki was reportedly checked 3 times by the service. He was.
finally manager of the planet War II Museum and president of IPN. How come nothing was found on him?
In the IPN Act there are very restrictive criteria that the candidate for president of this unit must meet. specified a individual must besides undergo the examination procedure.
Let's talk about 2 presidential candidates gathering in the second round. Rafał Trzaskowski, who was the Secretary of State, so I fishy he should have passed the alleged examination procedure.
Karol Nawrocki as an applicant for access to top-secret information besides had to be subject to extended investigation.
That's why, despite popular cognition of Nawrocki contacts
With the half-world, he went through this procedure positive?
Let's agree that this procedure is not perfect either. She's truly focused on checking the fact of what everyone wrote about themselves.
And if he didn't compose something, no 1 would go in?
Well, if he didn't compose something, it's fine. Very many facts cannot be established in the examination procedure.
The intent of specified a proceeding is to verify whether this individual gives the warrant of the preservation of state secrecy. In short, it's a verification of what's written in the individual survey. And her pattern was besides prepared a fewer beautiful years ago.
What are they asking in this survey?
That's where you gotta tell me if individual has been treated in a psychiatric state.
I realize that if the candidate doesn't pass, he's officially a sane person?
That's right. Most often, erstwhile a individual admits to treatment, for example, for depression, the investigating authority may refuse to issue a safety certificate.
There's besides a point there: did you always "take a movie" due to alcohol or drugs. If individual doesn't confess, how will they test it?
And most likely 90% of people won't give it, knowing that it can't be verified. So this procedure doesn't make sense.
Donald Tusk just solved any of the doubt. As he claims on X: "A Gdańsk ABW officer investigating Nawrocki's case in 2021 issued a negative opinion, but the Script Head of the Agency for unknown reasons did not take it into account. The then head of the ABW is present the advisor to president Duda".
This just confirms my critical assessment of the classified information protection system,
in which ABW plays a decisive function and whose chief arbitrarily acknowledges who to issue a safety certificate and who not. The procedure is formally applicable, but the head of the ABW may, regardless of the result of the procedure, either grant or receive a certificate.
I will tell the Prime Minister that in this peculiar case, the ABW – with knowledge
of issuing a certificate despite the grounds for refusal, she was able to initiate a review procedure after the change of management in 2023.
And as a result, retreat the previously issued certificate if it was found that there were actually negative indications. The Prime Minister should besides explain
with the coordinator, why this did not happen and why he only learned about it now.
Journalists' information shows that the individual who had access to classified information from 2021 was a basement, a kibol, who is active in militias, plus the subject of Mr. George's studio.
Such threads cannot be traced to the candidate.
In our country, erstwhile something has been passed, it's like it's from a bronze. And no 1 touches it anymore. For respective years now, I've been saying that the secret information protection bill is to be discarded. She's from another era. It should be rewritten. But no government is interested.
The Law and Justice says that journalists utilizing the threads of Nawrocki's life use
From the NSA information. They're doing this to publically attack 1 of the candidates. Homeland safety is cutting off and threatening to sue for specified accusations. How are you looking at this?
I effort not to talk on things I don't know. I can comment on strategy solutions. And I will repeat myself: if the ABW wants to convince the public that it is "clean" – and I believe it is so – it should be curious in setting up a supervisory authority for peculiar services, which will give reliable information about whether the service is telling the truth.
In respective countries of the European Union, specified bodies are already in operation. No 1 here is interested. I talked and wrote about it in 1 of the papers last year. At the time I pointed out, among another things, that the services should see their business in this, due to the fact that in this way they are able to convince the public that they are right.
Now we have a word against a word.
Yeah, that's the word against the word. all time I say, if you didn't block the appointment of specified an authority, you'd have a place to run for aid to be verified. Contrary to appearances, it should be the services who want specified an organ to be due to the fact that they could defend themselves.
Then why is no 1 taking this action?
It's fundamentally a question to politicians of all options. We're dealing with something called the Cold War Intelligence Culture. It's reasoning in terms of
Special services should be discussed as small as possible, preferably not at all.
In most democratic societies, this has already been obsolete for a long time, and we inactive function in this culture. It is supported by both politicians and servants. This was the case both during the regulation of the Civic Platform, later PiS and present – during the civilian Coalition.
Politicians are, in a sense, hostages to the services that say, "That's the way it must be, otherwise it's impossible." That's what the bill says.
But the bill can be revised.
Yeah, you can besides pass a fresh bill, but it doesn't. By nature, the servants are not curious in having individual look in their pots. But it turns out they should be. due to the fact that in specified situations, they could besides fight for their credibility and social trust.
And could they show that they are not, as the right-wing organization accuses them, the political body that participates in the election campaign?
Exactly. But it requires reasoning open, modern, 21st-century. And unfortunately, 20th-century reasoning dominates the service. And they kind of infect politicians.
Politicians in turn prosecute a different business. They don't want their political competitors looking backstage, so to speak. due to the fact that they realize that specified an authority would should be independent of them. And they don't want an authority independent of politicians to talk about how it is. all political force that rules besides wants full control of the transmission.
Why don't we draw conclusions after Nawrock's candidacy?
No, I'm skeptical.
Why?
The political class just doesn't understand.
But it is an act against Poland.
That's right. I expressed specified hopes in 2019 at the legislature of civilian Rights organised by the then Ombudsman, Adam Bodnar.
I said that the opposition at the time, seeing what was happening to peculiar services, has no tools to control them independently, so it should introduce this subject to the agenda. It was the best time to be opposed to this kind of thing. But it wasn't done.
There was a tiny entry in the coalition agreement that they would work on improving, improving it. They came to power and did nothing.
It's been a year and a half.
Those who regulation present would gotta pass a bill that would presume that the opposition would besides participate in control of the services. And they don't want that. There is simply a polarization that anyone who governs present will not let their competitors to look and measure their activities.
It's been going on for decades. There is no 1 to go out and say, "It is me for the sake of the case, for the sake of Poland that I will do it, even though it is not in my political interest today."
Does it annoy you to see what's happening politically and who's about to become president?
It truly annoys me.
In the face of the war, 1 of the presidential candidates on tv talks about demilitarization, support for Putin.
A lot of stupid things have been said, and it just makes me worse. First of all, the awareness that polarization has gone so far that at the minute it is not crucial what anyone says, but by whom they are supported. It's just a dead end that doesn't lead us anywhere.
Brunatnyje, brutalizes Poland.
Unfortunately. I'm trying to be truly objective. And I think that the full political class, which present decides about the political situation in the country, has been working on what we are dealing with present in Poland.
These are mistakes made for years by shortsightedness, by reasoning with categories of ad hoc interests of individual political groups. present we just hit the wall.
Some time ago, I spoke to an ex-PO politician who said he was ashamed of the fact that a man like Nawrocki could even be a candidate for this office. He knows that all governments have failed, and so does he.
This is simply a origin for concern for everyone.
With all this information on Nawrock, could the State Election Commission revoke his candidacy?
I don't think there's any specified formal basis. It's just the decision he'd gotta make to the Law and Justice. I say we're in a dead end. The situation is very complicated.
Let us add to this the war going on abroad, the Russian and Belarusian services spreading in Poland...
Not only the Belarusian and Russian services are spreading here, as I have been talking about for many years. But nobody's interested, it's more crucial than the current slapping.
I'm sorry to say this, but erstwhile it comes to the fitness of peculiar services, their ability to face modern threats is about as it was 30 years ago, which is far from enough. due to the fact that the threats have arrived and have changed significantly.
Further Polish services – as General Pytel put it – have their teeth broken?
Nothing has changed: neither personally, nor functionally, nor methodologically, nor materially, nor financially. They're what they were erstwhile the last squad ruled. A couple of people were listed at the top, that's all.
Do you gotta replace the pits?
I think these services request to be built again. They've been so devastated over the years, and they're dragging this baggage behind them. No law was passed, no substantive organisational changes were introduced. There is no debate on this, no work.
We're where we were two, three, 4 years ago. People are just as few, money is just as little. And these services have more and more tasks due to the fact that there are more and more threats.
Recently, I prepared a speech for abroad students on the strategy of Polish services over the last 10 years. And what has happened since 2015 on surveillance and control of services? Nothing happened. There have been no crucial changes.
Several people were listed.
But you know, it's not a individual problem, it's a single person. These are the problems.
of a systemic, structural nature. We request a imagination of long-term development
and consistently, methodically implement it.
Although more and more are nominally spent on services, but compared to the increasing state budget, these amounts are decreasing, they represent an expanding percent of the budget.
Methodology, mentality, methods, forms, tools – everything has been the same for 35 years. Despite the efforts made in the past by a fistful of reformers who hoped that change was possible.
Only the geopolitical situation has changed considerably.
Everything's changed. The planet has changed.
And in a minute it may be that kibol, sutener will appoint generals, chiefs of police.
There are no prevention mechanisms. We have analog services in the digital world.
Why is it not a precedence for the Minister of peculiar Services to modernise them?
I have no idea. possibly there's no time, due to the fact that he's besides the Home Secretary...
Shouldn't these 2 be separated?
They weren't expected to be combined at all. The Minister of the Coordinator should be equipped
a real ministry and a large-scale, multi-annual modernisation plan. I have prepared specified a concept, my papers are available to the public.
Furthermore, the regulation which is presently in force concerning the work of the Minister of Coordinator has been drawn up by me. It is precisely to make a bill on the Minister and Ministry, which would service to carry out extended tasks related to the management of the full service apparatus. But it was not done in either 2015 or subsequent years.
It hasn't changed in years. Only the political situation, personality, the safety environment changes. We besides have fresh interior threats that affect the stableness of the political situation.
Let's say, how does that translate into our safety?
Very negative, but generally, we don't know what's going on here. Society is deprived of access to cognition on this subject – the planet of services does not communicate with it.
Information on spy scandals, detentions of various people from abroad who work for Russia, or news of hacking attacks, that's actually the tip of the iceberg.
Please note that the essence of intelligence services, which we call special, is to be in front of the problem. Preventing, predicting, countering, informing authorities to take action.
And we're happy all the time erstwhile we can show pictures of individual being arrested. But that means he's already done something, done something.
Shouldn't the service have let that happen?
That's right. Our services should not let him to make any move. The most effective services are those of which small is said due to the fact that they execute their tasks in silence, but effectively. Their successes mean there's nothing to talk about in the media, due to the fact that they prevented threats that didn't materialize, they didn't happen.
But in today’s world, there is no request to talk about service. The trick is to learn to talk of the service so as not to harm them, not to talk at all. Now we're hurting them due to the fact that we can't control them.
When the services are out of control, they become impunityless, nor do they have any incentive to make mistakes, but they have no incentive to perfect themselves, make themselves. Without control, they are degeneration.
The top work to scan Nawrocki's candidate, who can take over the office of president and gain access to the most crucial state secrets, was done by journalists?
Yes, sir. And thank God the journalists were doing their job. If it wasn't for the media, we'd only know about the candidates what they want to say about themselves. They fill a immense gap that politicians have given us by neglecting the construction of tools.
