Another mention point – conversation with Magdalena Dziewguć

Aleksandra Karasińska: Poland is present an unprecedented success. According to IMF forecasts, our country has just driven Japan in terms of GDP per capita in purchasing power parity. This is something Gierek promised in the 1970s, but those promises ended in an economical disaster. present is reality.However, this success is hard to accept in different social groups, but besides in different generations. Why don't young Poles feel the beneficiaries of this success?

Magdalena Dziewguć: I think it is worth to realize the essence of this success, due to the fact that at the minute unfortunately we fall into specified a hurraoptymism, we are pleased with the covers of “The Economist” and another abroad writings, which praise the large success of Poland. He is undoubtedly, but we must realize him well and how he is perceived by individual social segments.

Poland was successful as a company as a state. This is simply a macroeconomic success. There is no uncertainty here. We have over 30 years of continuous economical growth, the value generated by our economy is at G20 level, the 20 largest economies. But this is all the macro scale, and if we proceed to usage this metaphor of the company, is the fact that the company has achieved global success the same as the fact that the employees of this company are billionaires and feel that way? As we look at Poles aged 40-50, our generation, who have worked and participated in this growth for the last 30 years, we gotta ask questions about the sources and costs of this success.

Why, then, is this success? due to the fact that even in this case we cannot agree in Poland...

This was the intersection of a "weather window": we had very favourable geopolitics, a time of globalisation, peace and unchangeable investments. We entered the European Union and EU funds flowed – all this can be called happiness. But the success of the company is erstwhile happiness meets hard work and that besides happened. We, the generation of demographic boom, have thrown ourselves on this occupation like mice on cheese and all the statistic show that for the past 30 years in Europe Poles have worked the hardest. We worked the most hours without looking at the time, so we were fascinated by this historical opportunity. So we have actually achieved this success.

The young don't appreciate it?

It's not like our kids have been looking at us uncritically all this time. They saw our above-average industriousness and thought it wasn't cool that Mom and Dad were inactive at work, they were absent. They did not adopt this pattern as role model to follow. In addition, successes have not spread evenly – we have increasing social inequalities. We must besides remember that we, the generation of 30 years in the labour market, have a different mention point. We inactive know that what we have is not given erstwhile and for all. We remember that there was nothing in stores, we had no colored goods, no cars, no functional apartments. On the another hand, generations born already in free Poland that time know only from x-rayed photos from childhood or any stories of parents about the fact that erstwhile there was no Coca-Cola and there were only 2 programs on TV. They don't remember. They compare to their peers on Instagram, for example in Western Europe and do not think they have easy.

But the labour marketplace is besides little optimistic for them than for me, who in the 1990s, erstwhile I knew English, I could choose in companies, and I got a occupation right away.

Of course, from the position of the starting point, contrary to appearances, it is much harder for them than for us. I remember myself that I had respective occupation offers to choose from in my freshman year. Although they were not well - paid, they were all attractive. There's no specified thing now. Secondly, it was much easier to start from scratch too, to go on your own, to rent a area with friends. We had nothing, we only had quite a few dreams, but nothing stopped us. Everyone started from scratch. The young generation of Poles has no chance to start from scratch, must have any capital, support from the family, individual must first credit them.

This is where the inequality you mentioned...

Some young generation will inherit something. For the first time in the past of Poland we have observed the phenomenon of inheriting housing, any property, capital, concerning a larger population, due to the fact that in our generation everyone was mediocre and competed from the level of post-communist resources, a bankrupt state. Now any inherit, and that's a immense difference, due to the fact that they don't gotta work on a debt payment, they don't gotta work on tuition, on surviving costs, they can just focus on their development. And that creates social tensions and polarity. And I anticipate this phenomenon to deepen.

In your technological work, you are curious in changes in younger generations of Poles. In what areas are you looking at these changes?

What we are trying to do now on SWPS is to do any synthesis of investigation that already exists. Many scientists in Poland at various universities carry out investigation on younger generations of Poles. What we lacked and what inspired our task is an effort to see a broader perspective. We want to make a deeper map of the state of mind, moods, aspirations and ambitions of the next generation. We want to realize where their sources of frustration are, where there are sources of social tensions, which young Poles are pleased with. We want to answer the question: whether they are optimistic about the further improvement of Poland, or whether they fear for life, housing and functioning in Poland for any reason. These are fundamental questions from the position of our country's long-term success.

I know you're besides looking at generations through the prism of competence.

For many years I have been convinced that the origin of economical growth, innovation and the success of our country was that many people had a advanced level of skills. possibly we were poor, but well educated, and we were able to learn quickly. However, looking at what we have from our first analyses, I think that the biggest change has not taken place in the area of competence, but in an environment where young people are raised. Despite our simplified assumptions that these children are getting better food today, they are theoretically healthier, they are raised with better toys, they are walking in better clothes, mostly in better prosperity, but at the same time we underestimated the fact that they are experiencing social change in the space of key foundations that have established our generation.

What are these foundations?

These are 3 key areas. First, our generation was raised by a very unchangeable family. The definition of household for hundreds of years was the same: parents, children and village: grandmother, cousins. We grew up in micro-community that gave us a sense of security, of being embedded in a certain cultural identity, of tradition. Right now it's completely redefining itself. Looking at divorce statistics, it should actually be assumed that all second, all 3rd matrimony present will fall apart. So the household of the future will be patchwork, which is made up of more children, mothers, fathers, but the relationships in this household will naturally be much more loose, there will be little engagement of grandmothers and grandparents. Especially the function of the grandma changed due to the fact that for years they were a inexpensive labour force, which was unfair, but it was very beneficial for the surroundings, the grandmothers were an emotional buffer. They were the stone of children: they loved, raised, supported, even if their parents were absent. Now these women are gone, and unfortunately, it's the smartphones that fill this gap. The second component that disappeared is spiritual institutions. The Church imposed moral norms which were commonly understood, defined what is simply a crime and what is not. In the meantime, if we look at digital space today, where there are, for example, content related to violence, there is force in computer games, there are patoinfluencers, celebrities fighting in cages or hurting animals, and these content is exponentially developing and millions of people are watching it – that means standardizing the phenomena that spiritual institutions erstwhile absolutely condemned, which affected the limitation of this phenomenon.

Finally, the 3rd element, or school, which is besides going through a immense change. Unfortunately, any kind of degradation, due to the fact that it ceases to be a place where friendships are forged, has less opportunities to be a place of safe community building. In addition, prestige and the function of a teacher as a educator, authority in society have decreased greatly. Then the question must be answered: what is left for children? Where are the foundations on which they can build their character?

So the planet of young people present is without these basics?

I said earlier that we were poor, but erstwhile we looked from the position of these pillars, we may not have had assets, but we had a advanced intellectual resilience, a large ability to take risks, an effort, we had very strong characters due to the fact that we had social ties, we got social support, we got quite a few help, and it seems that this next generation is not that easy.

Returning to school, erstwhile a teacher or teacher were absolute authority for parents and the full community, and of course for children. Teachers were respected, flowers were brought, laurels were brought. Today, prestige is determined by wages, and teachers are considered to be games that gain the national average...

Teachers are very poorly rewarded. They frequently fight for survival: they gotta take quite a few tutoring, extra work, which means they have little time to prepare lessons. They are tired, frustrated, and it is hard to inspire their students in this situation. At the same time, from many different studies we know how crucial it is to young people, specified as role -model. We had many good teachers due to the fact that they had good teachers who inspired them to do this job. To be specified a champion, a champion, individual who influences young people, gives them a chance. Unfortunately, beyond a number of economical challenges today, teachers have an image problem and this profession is not an apparent profession of the first or second. choice.This. a very hard profession, and at the same time 1 of the most crucial in society.

It reminds me of my simple school teacher in Spiska, who encouraged me to compose stories and my advanced school Polish teacher, who brought me books from home to read fresh crucial publications, so I felt absolutely this function as a master in my life and I think that thanks to them I besides became a journalist.

It is simply a celebrated saying that is attributed to Jan Zamoyski that such will be the Republic that youths hide them and I think that's precisely what we see today: erstwhile the position of the school, the teacher, the level of competence fell, we see mostly weaker youth, little prepared, little able to cope with the challenges of modern times. 30 years ago, we had equally large challenges, but very strong youth, and I think this could be a origin of reflection for those who are designing reforms in our country.

You mentioned that we grew up in microsocials. erstwhile I was in simple school, even in Warsaw I had this environment: we grew up in a group of neighbouring children in the yard, in a fluff, in the homes of these children, and always individual fed us there, and older children cared for younger children. present this model is almost gone.

First of all, there are less children, but besides those block settlements or streets with tenement houses closes, guards, so it is not so easy to find a friend or a friend to play with. The second change is that, contrary to appearances in a more free state, children have little freedom, due to the fact that in our generation they left home in the morning and returned in the evening and did not necessarily study to their parents: I will be in the park and then I will go to the playground and then I will be at my friend's. A man was inspired by simple safety rules: that he should return before dark. Both sides assumed large assurance in each other, which first taught responsibility, and secondly gave any choice space. Today, erstwhile I look at the experiences of my own children, I can see that it takes weeks to go to a alleged “fun” with the parents of another children. due to the fact that someone's got a pool, someone's got a rhythm, here Mom can't, and truly these kids play with each another 2 hours all fewer weeks. We were in a group of peers all day for several, respective hours. And thirdly, this is where a fresh digital space came in, which makes the kids not even looking for these contacts. They have a smartphone that you can play or watch. Motivation to go to a friend, play blocks or hide-and-seek is very low.

Let us stay in this digital space for a while, due to the fact that I think that many employers present do not realize that this generation of Zetek has grown up in a completely different world.

They grew up in a completely different environment, but they besides have a much broader position benchmark, or mention points. due to the fact that what did we truly know 30 years ago about corporate or business or about building innovative ventures? We watched the TVP tv series "Dynasty", where Blake Carrington was the only well-known businessman, and no 1 full understood what his company was doing. Today, people who are in advanced school realize how companies work, what are the different roles, what are the industries. You mentioned your Polish woman, which reminded me of the comic situation with my Polish teacher from Szczecin, who besides hoped to become a writer. erstwhile we met years later and told her I was working at a technology company, she said: What a loss, you, in this workplace... For her, the factory, the company was a imagination of the workers on the tape. Young people present have a completely different approach due to the fact that they have different knowledge.

I wonder why there is specified a tiny percent of young people who vote. For example, in the elections to the Europarliament in 2024 only 30% of people in between the 18th and 24th years voted, so this is not just a Polish phenomenon...

This is not a question of the very attitude towards elections or the state, it is simply a much more complicated problem. This is knowing your place in the world, a reasonably advanced analysis of your own influence: will the fact that I'm going to vote have any effect on my life? This is besides a substance of feeling liable for your country, which is much higher in older generations, while in younger ones, as we see in our analyses, there is much more concentration on yourself.

Young people have a sense of work for themselves and much little collective reasoning that was characteristic of the older generation. They limit their activities to their sphere of influence. We are besides trying to realize the function of the digital world. The content of the digital planet is lacking in civic education, building national identity, there are not many of them, and to be a diplomat, I will say, they are not the best quality. It's not about NGOs that do it very well, but there are different external organizations or institutions that intentionally make materials, low quality, without developmental content, to get any effect. This is very simple and easy accessible today, resulting in mediocre quality content on an unprecedented scale.

This influence of digital propaganda, Russian or Chinese manipulation is already getting to the awareness of Poles. But everyone seems to know that we are in a demographic crisis, that 1989 was the last year erstwhile there was substitutability of generations, and that, globally apart from South Korea, we are 1 of the fastest ageing societies in the world. How do I deal with this due to the fact that I think it's evidently creating a generational conflict, even economical one, due to the fact that these young people may be wondering why I should support 2 or 3 alien pensioners?

They don't even think about it. I think that if they were wondering, their frustration would deepen, and we are already seeing a large problem with the welfare of this generation. From the data we analyze, it is clear that this sense of work for the older generation is microscopic. Young people do not think in terms of “I gotta go to work, I gotta have children due to the fact that retirement or the financial situation of parents or grandparents depends on it”. In their case, the focus on self, on their needs is much higher than in erstwhile generations. Therefore, the decision to start a family, to have children, is besides mainly set up in this ‘me’ zone. They ask themselves: Will having children increase my comfort of existence, will it affect my life positively, will it benefit me and my values, or precisely the opposite? And all those who are parents know that parenting is not very beneficial in the short term, but it brings large effort, sacrifice and, of course, financial costs. But besides objectively, it is truly much harder to have children today.

Young girls look at this differently than boys We have a generation of adults or young adult boys who were frequently raised mainly by their mother. erstwhile they decide to have a baby, they don't think in terms of that being my burden and my problem, they just presume that the baby will be taken care of by their mother, which is their partner. At the same time, we have on the marketplace the first generations of women whose mothers have achieved financial independence, have done 2 jobs, at home and at work, and have raised their daughters rather differently. These girls or young adults are expecting partnerships, responsibilities sharing, and here we have another challenges, due to the fact that that is not the case yet. It makes it very hard to build relationships. We request to communicate on our roles in a common home with a different knowing of the same matter.

We talked.A lot about generational differences, but I wonder if there are any threads that connect generations of older Poles with the youngest ones?

This is 1 of the most interesting parts of this work, due to the fact that we effort to find values common to all generations of Poles. Is there anything that we carry, that we are as emotionally excited about? It seems to be a national pride area. Being Polish, Polish, being a part of this immense change we see in our country is consistent. But this is only the beginning of our analysis. We're looking, and so far, to the surprise of it, there are fewer things in common.

What was the code for the values of the X-generation or earlier, or the cult of work, the dedication, taking work for the weaker, the conflict for the good, for the truth, for freedom, does not sound so powerfully in these next generations. possibly due to the fact that there's always been quite a few these things for them. It is not that they do not respect these values, they simply believe that the fact that we are free, we have civilian rights, is normal. But we're inactive looking for answers to that question.

Thank you so much for talking to me.

Magda the Girl – a leader with more than 20 years of experience in technology companies. Expert on Corporate Governance, digital transformation and organizational culture. It promotes women's professional activation and the creation of parent support mechanisms in companies. Together with Jędrzej Voelkel, he conducts a investigation and improvement task at SWPS University devoted to young Poles.