I was a hired economical killer

With John Perkins, a erstwhile "economically commissioned killer" for the United States, we are talking about modern empires, the war in Ukraine and the business of Gaza, the current global situation and its hopes for a better future.

Agata Zadrożna, Rafał Górski: After conducting interviews with Robert Bilott and Joel Bakan, we are now honored to talk with you. We have large respect for you and we are very grateful that you have agreed to an interview for our Weekly. Your book ‘Confessions of an economical Hit Man“ was an global bestseller, for over seventy weeks was on the bestseller list ,,The fresh York Times”. More than 2 million copies worldwide were sold and the book was translated into more than 30 languages. The first edition in Poland was published in 2006 by Studio Emka, and on the cover there was a advice "Gazeta Prawna".

Could you tell us who you are and why readers should trust you?

John Perkins: My name is John Perkins. I was the chief economist at a consulting firm in Boston, United States, for about 10 years, in the 1970s. Among my clients were the planet Bank, the United Nations, governments from around the world, including the United States government. In fact, I was “an economical assassin for hire”.

My task was to make countries dependent on debt – countries that had resources, specified as oil, which were desirable by our corporations.

We have provided large loans to these countries, which were later utilized to hire our companies to carry out large infrastructure projects specified as energy systems, highways, ports or airports – investments that supported respective wealthy families and global corporations. These wealthy families were owners of manufacture and commercial companies which utilized specified infrastructure. However, most citizens suffered due to the fact that the money that could be spent on wellness care, education and another social services was spent on interest and debt... Finally, we would return and say, "If you cannot repay the chief amount of debt, then sale us your resources – oil or anything else – for a very low price, without any environmental and social regulations... or let us build a military base in your territory, privatize your public industries and sale them to our investors." That's how we created a real commercial empire. By the way, the leaders of these countries knew that if they did not accept these conditions, the people behind me, called the "shakals", would most likely make their lives difficult, possibly overthrow them or even kill them. Unfortunately, there is simply a long past of specified activities in the United States. Examples include Arbenz in Guatemala, Allende in Chile, Mossadeq in Iran... and so on. This communicative made my work easier due to the fact that it was an effective way of convincing people to sign a contract.

My book – first of all, what I wrote was thoroughly verified by my publisher, and later besides by many media including the "New York Times", which published an extended article about it. During this verification, extended research, interviews with another people were conducted, and my old passports were checked, which I kept to prove that I was in the countries I wrote about and that the events I described actually took place there. I realize that you may have doubts as to why individual would trust me, but I think that it is already proven that the stories in my book are true, and the facts I am describing are in line with reality.

We operate without censorship. We don't advertise, we don't charge for texts. We request your support. Throw yourself in the media.

Is there anything you would like to say to those who uncertainty the fact of your stories?

Well, have them run their own research. That's a good question, but they can survey what happened in the countries I compose about. You can trust on the ,,New York Times” and my publisher who confirmed that I was in those countries at the time I claimed I was. I would add that there were any doubts erstwhile the book first appeared in 2004-2005. However, there has been so many verifications since that time that I have seldom been asked this question.

Who are today's "economic assassins commissioned"?

So, unfortunately, I gotta say that present there are a lot more of them than in my day. In my time, we were, 1 could say, typical – in another words, we entered these countries, we convinced them to accept the loans and employment of American corporations to implement infrastructure projects, but we did not truly care which corp they would choose as a construction company. Could have been Bechtel, Halliburton, Stone and Webster. As long as we got our share of the profit, we didn't care about which company would win the tender. Today, there are inactive people who work with the planet Bank and another organizations, but we besides have economical contract killers who work for all major global corporation, promoting the interests of this corporation, which did not happen in my day. For example, they can come to a country like Poland and say: “We want to build a mill in this area” ... But it could be Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic. We will see who will give us the best taxation relief and the smallest environmental and social regulations.

These hired economical assassins, working for a corp that wants to build a factory, put quite a few force on these countries to compete with each other.

In addition, China has developed very effective economical assassins on demand. I taught on the MBA program [Master of Business Administration – postgraduate studies in management – ed.] in China and realized that Chinese students were truly trying to get information from me about what I was doing well and what I wasn't. And they're highly effective at that. China has proven to be highly effective in action or possibly more effective than I have always been or, as I think today, than most US economical assassins on demand. So there's a full fresh bunch of hired economical killers who work for large corporations, as well as China and another countries...

I wonder if today's technological achievements, e.g. in the media, play a immense function in all of this – possibly more than always before...?

Yeah, I'm certain you do. Since I am no longer straight active in this activity, I cannot give besides many details, but the economical assassins commissioned are based on the belief that perceptions form reality. We know that the United States, Poland, corporations, religions or cultures, do not be beyond what people perceive. erstwhile a adequate number of people accept a perception and take action to strengthen it – for example, by giving it legal position – this has a immense impact on reality.

Take the example of the United States, erstwhile in the 1970s the belief was created that the United States would rise. The thought was to be imagined first and then to take concrete steps to implement it.

Modern psychology, quantum physics, marketing or politics are based on this – on convincing people to view things in a certain way.

And that's precisely what economical assassins do for hire – they usage perceptions to convince countries to accept immense loans and yet sale their resources to our countries.

Who steps in erstwhile economical killers fail?

The people we call jackalami – they are usually CIA contractors or another institutions. They exert large force on the presidents and another people around them, utilizing blackmail or another forms of coercion. They remind the presidents of what happened to the another leaders who refused to participate in the game... who were overthrown in the coups or murdered. There are many specified cases – I mentioned a fewer earlier: Allende in Chile, Arbenz in Guatemala, Mossadegh in Iran, Lumumba in Congo, Di And they're just presidents.

These things can besides happen to ministers and those who are lower in the hierarchy. There are many ways to make people realize that if they do not play this game, they will endure and their families will besides suffer.

In your book you compose that the pillars of a modern empire are fear, debt, scarcity and strategy ‘Divide and rule." What empire are we talking about and could you explain these pillars in more detail?

Yes, throughout the past of many empires – whether Roman, French, British, Chinese or contemporary American Empires – utilized these 4 pillars. Historically, most likely the most crucial of them was fear – fear of military invasion or fear that if you do not join an alliance with a country that seeks to advance its empire, your neighbors or individual else would attack you. We economical assassins usage this mechanics very effectively. For example, during the Vietnam War, we claimed that if the Southeast Asian countries did not take our side, the Russians or the Chinese would take them. So there was this concept of fear. However, in fresh years this has been mostly replaced by debt due to the fact that we are in danger of atomic war. Countries like the United States and Russia, which are large atomic powers, do not want war against each another due to the fact that the consequences would be besides disastrous. Poles know besides well...

As a result, economics becomes the battlefield, where economical assassins under contract bring countries into debt.

And it all revolves around another pillar, which is fear of deficiency. It is said to countries: “You are a mediocre country. You don't have adequate food for your citizens. You cannot give them adequate care." For example, I was late in Ecuador, where I have a long history. I was a hired economical killer there. Ecuador is simply a mediocre country, as we know, but it has immense resources. It has oil, gold, copper, cobalt and minerals that are needed for the high-tech industry. The thought is to constantly emphasize to Ecuador that he is inhabited by many truly mediocre people. And the only way to aid these people is to let us lend and exploit these resources, and then the country will have money to build hospitals, schools and another infrastructure for all its citizens. The United States is doing it in Ecuador right now. But that's what China does. And China wins in Ecuador. China actually took over Ecuador, as well as most of Africa and most of Latin America. China is presently the largest trading partner in the world. They are number 1 in trade with around 125 countries, while the United States only with 54 countries. It's amazing how effective the... So this is fear of deficiency.

And then we have this thought of "share and rule." It was always an crucial strategy. For example, economical assassins on commission say to Poland: “Join our forces, and then you will aid us fight Germany” – or to anyone else who is the enemy at any time. But now the Chinese have adopted a fresh strategy. They do the opposite. They say: “No, we do not want to divide and regulation the world. We want to unite the planet through the fresh Silk Road". They're very, very clever. They say they want to aid everyone become trading partners. It's a very wise decision on their part.

In your book you mention the presidents of Ecuador and Panama. Can you explain why?

I compose a lot about the presidents of the 2 countries I profoundly admire: Jaime Roldós – democratically elected president of Ecuador [Jaime Roldos Aguilera was the president of the country from 1979 to 1981 – ed.] and Omar Torrijos, who was the head of the Panamanian state [Omar Torrijos Herrera, authoritarian leader of Panama from 1968 to 1981 and at the same time commander of the Panaman National defender – ed.]. These 2 presidents have not accepted my proposals. They were very honest. They knew they were risking their lives, but they wouldn't play the game. Torrijos was peculiarly interesting due to the fact that his country, Panama, was small, but he owned the Panama Canal, and he negotiated a treaty on the canal with president Jimmy Carter. He was seen as David fighting Goliath. A tiny country facing a large country.

He was known all over the planet and very respected. He was very popular in Panama. But he told me: “I will not play this game. I will not sale my people, I will not betray them.”

Both presidents were killed in a very mysterious plane crash in 1981, 3 months apart. Throughout Latin America and in many another parts of the world, it was widely recognized that these were assassinations, and I besides believe that they most likely were. No evidence has always been found due to the fact that erstwhile individual dies in a plane crash, if there is "burning evidence", he falls with the plane. So we don't know for sure, but it frightened another presidents. The leaders around the planet believed that they could besides be murdered. Perception, again – perception shapes reality. The perception was that these 2 presidents were murdered, and that meant that if you're president of Peru, Argentina or Guatemala better listen, you better play this game due to the fact that otherwise your plane might crash.

In your book, you wrote: “While we in the United States are taught to fear China, Russia and terrorists, many people in the planet are afraid of us. These people fear the Pentagon and the presence of American troops stationed in over 100 countries around the world. They're afraid of the CIA, NSA, and another U.S. intelligence agencies. They're afraid of drones, rockets and bombs. They are afraid about our dollar and debt-based monetary system." This is simply a passage from your book "New Confessions of an economical Hitman".

In Poland we are taught to fear Russia and China, at the same time to trust the United States with which we are in the military alliance. What is your opinion on this and what advice could you give us?

Yes, I think it's wise for smaller countries to fear large powers and exploitation. I am a very loyal American – I think what the United States does in most cases is good, but I besides know how we exploited people. My occupation was this. And 1 of the reasons I revealed what I was doing is due to the fact that I think the only way to correct my mistakes is to see them first. So I see them and I besides advise countries to be cautious of the large powers that offer loans.

Poland is presently in a very hard situation due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and concerns that Russia wants to make something like the USSR again. I think Poland has all reason to fear Russia. Therefore, NATO is your top defender, and the United States is part of NATO. My advice to Poles is to trust NATO, to usage NATO, due to the fact that you gotta defend yourself against Russia. In 2017, I was a talker at the economical Forum in Petersburg, alongside president Putin. At the time, I was impressed with him. He talked about climate change, about a planet that should work together to combat climate change, terrorism and atomic threats. But something happened to him.

I think Putin's crazy. What he's doing now is terrible, horrible, there's no excuse, and the planet has to halt it before it goes besides far.

Therefore, Poland is right that at this minute it puts large trust in NATO. This trust is intended to defend against Russia's forces, but at the same time it is not essential to sacrifice our resources or fall into immense debt. I am worried about Ukraine - I just heard this morning that it is taking a immense debt from European countries, and I am worried about Ukraine. They must be defended, they must be supported, they must be stopped by Russia. But at the same time, I hope that they will not fall into excessive debt and become forever dependent on another NATO countries. NATO should offer aid in the form of grants, not loans.

The cover of the 3rd edition of your book presents Chinese and American transport containers. Why was the cover selected?

We looked at a number of different cover proposals and wanted to show a rivalry between China and the United States, but we did not want to introduce it as a rivalry based on violence. We did not want to advance the thought that these 2 countries could actually start a war. I hope it doesn't come to that, I don't believe it. So it was about how to show this competition as a trade competition.

In fact, China defeats the United States around the planet through trade, and this trade, to a large extent, is carried through containers that are transported by ships, trucks and trains.

It seemed to be a beautiful good way to present this rivalry, and on the illustration the stack of containers of China is simply a small larger. China has 2 and a half containers, while the United States has only 1 and a half. China is growing, so the symbolism is that China is winning this rivalry at this point – they win this war, and the United States was not very smart in their approach to it. Our hired economical assassins did not execute as effective a occupation as Chinese hired economical assassins. At the same time, the United States was very active in wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and another parts of the world. China did not participate in these wars. China has channeled its resources to convince countries in Africa, Latin America and another countries in the planet that they should take their side. They utilized quite a few our mistakes.

In 2023, during the 5th Geopolitical Forum, we presented a paper "Apology of an economical Hit Man” directed by Stelios Koulloglou. What inspired this film, and does it uncover something we won't find in the book?

He was inspired by the fact that the movie manager was a well-known tv personality in Greece. He and his movie crew came to the United States and interviewed me for 3 years, which was very popular in Greece. During the 3rd year, he told me, “Have you always thought about apologizing to the people you hurt as an economical hired killer?” I said, “No, I didn’t think about it.” And he asked, “What do you think?” to which I replied, “I would like to do so.” So he said, “What if I arrange a movie and take the movie crew and you to Ecuador? Would you agree to that?” I said, “Yes, of course.” And so it happened.

This gave me the chance to return to Ecuador – a country I love very much, where I was in the Peace Corps in the late 1960s and an economical assassin commissioned in the 1970s, and now all year I take groups there to learn from indigenous people and support them. I am besides the founder of a nonprofit organization Pachamama Alliance, which supports a number of actions to defend Ecuador's Amazon. That was the inspiration for making a film, that was motivation. The manager brought in a movie crew, we rented a large area in Quito, and just like in the film, a immense number of people came to perceive to me. This gave me the chance to say what I truly feel, namely that I profoundly regret the work I did and the exploitation that took place in Ecuador and many another countries, at the hands of another economical killers.

The American military-industrial complex derives profits from wars in Ukraine and Gaza. What is your opinion on this?

I powerfully agree with the request to defend Ukraine. It is very crucial to halt Russian aggression. Ukraine, its citizens, must be protected. However, I fear that the war in Ukraine may not end there – that there may be an effort to rebuild what was erstwhile the USSR. What's happening in Gaza is terrible. No 1 should deny that Israel has the right to defend itself, but Israel has gone much further, expanding the expansion of settlements in Palestinian areas. Israel's fresh actions to usage weapons to blow up people, pagers, and mobile phones are scandalous. Again, I am not questioning Israel's right to defend itself, but I believe that Israel is going in the other direction. By killing civilians, Israel makes many people in the planet lose respect for it.

I am afraid that Biden's administration continues to deliver weapons. I think Biden's administration has done well in many areas, but in one, in my opinion, it has failed – it does not exert adequate force on Israel to halt killing civilians. A two-state solution is needed.

One of the irony of this situation, which I see, is that the United States is providing weapons to Israel, which is utilized to kill civilians in Gaza, and at the same time we are telling the Ukrainians that they cannot usage our weapons to attack Russia. It doesn't make sense to me.

I think this is simply a contradiction – we let Israel to usage our weapons to attack Gaza, but Ukraine cannot usage the same weapons against Russia. No another European countries impose specified bans on Ukraine. It's very disturbing.

What advice would you give to Poles who defy the economical activities of mercenaries?

I think it's worth being very, very smart and careful. Especially be careful of those who come and offer something that seems besides good to be true. As my grandpa said, “If something seems besides good to be true, it most likely isn’t.” Care should be taken towards people who propose or offer large loans to build industrial and infrastructure facilities. You gotta read between the lines, look for past behind history. Always look for past behind history. Why are these people doing this? usually in 9 cases out of 10 they do not do it out of altruism – they do it to gain something. Sometimes it can be done for altruistic reasons, but unfortunately it is rather unlikely. Therefore, it is worth keeping your eyes open, read between the lines and look for past behind history.

What future do you foresee for the world?

The planet will change due to the fact that we have created what we call the "death economy" – a degenerative economical strategy that consumes and pollutes itself, leading to self-destruction. There is no uncertainty that present we have a global economical strategy that has failed. Landslides melt, oceans rise, people starve all over the world. There are unimaginable wars, tiny and large, of all kinds. Species are dying out.

It's an economy that destroys itself.

Of course, she's done quite a few good in the past. We have created an amazing discipline – the fact that we can talk through Zoom is amazing – and large medicine, technology, art, music and many another things. But that went besides far. We must realize that it is based on the presumption of maximising short-term profits for corporations, regardless of social and environmental costs and on materialistic consumption for all. And that doesn't work anymore.

We gotta change that. We request to make an economy of life, an economical strategy that will be regenerative, which will pay people to clean up contamination – to invent ways to collect and recycle plastic floating in the oceans – to regenerate damaged environments – to plant trees in places where forests have been destroyed – and to make fresh technologies that will make energy from air, water. Solar and wind energy are a step forward, but this is only the beginning. We gotta decision forward.

I am talking about an economical strategy that will pay people to do good things and which will aim at maximising the long-term benefits of life. Yes, corporations gotta make money to operate, companies gotta work too, but they don't gotta maximize short-term profits. They can make any short-term profits, but besides invest in the future, pay their employees decent salaries, supply them with wellness care, pensions and so on. I'm not certain what it looks like in Poland, but in the United States, it doesn't happen anymore. We're entering a phase where we gotta decision from the degenerative strategy to the regeneration system. If we don't, we're going to go to disaster, and I don't want to believe that people are stupid adequate to proceed their way to disaster. I sacrifice my life of hope, I believe that we will change for the better, that we will make an economy of life. That's what I'm writing, that's what I'm talking about, that's what I'm sacrificing my life to. And I truly hope that happens.

If I didn't have hope, I wouldn't be doing this interview.

But I besides realize that the alternate is that we will not do what needs to be done. This will lead to disasters, greater human suffering, animal suffering and environmental suffering. This will most likely lead to a simplification in the population, but not in a good way – a simplification in the population through violence. Who knows how – through subsequent diseases, atomic war. Who knows? But we gotta change. You'll most likely see any beautiful extremist changes in your life. I have large hope in the young generation and frankly, I am very sorry due to the fact that my generation has put your generation in a very, very hard situation. But the good news is, challenges can be fun. So effort to enjoy making these changes.

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It is simply a small comforting that the Lord has so much hope that we can make changes, because, frankly, erstwhile I talk to people of my generation, I see that we are losing hope a small – due to the fact that the changes that you are talking about are already happening, and there are inactive so many people who are either surviving in denial, or just don't want to do anything about it. But you are right that there are many in my generation who want to make the planet a better place.

Yes, not everyone has to agree – we just request what we call a critical mass. We don't know precisely what that means, but I besides gotta say that it gave me large hope erstwhile I taught on an MBA program in Shanghai, China. MBA students there were elected by the Chinese government as future leaders of China. 1 of the things that truly curious me was that young MBA students in China said, "You know, we in China created an economical miracle. We had an economical growth of about 10% per year for 30 years. No 1 else did. We pulled 900 million people out of utmost poverty. That's almost 3 times the population of the United States at the time. We created an economical miracle, but we paid a terrible environmental and social price for it. But we created a miracle, and now we, a generation of young people in China, have been through terrible pollution. We don't want that for our kids. We've been through serious social disturbances. We don't want this to happen to our kids. We want to make another miracle, an environmental and social miracle. And we know that we can make miracles here.” I liked it. It was so powerful.

And I hear it besides from young people in the United States, and in Europe I spoke at large events – at a large music festival in the Czech Republic, where many young people expressed their desire to change things.

There is simply a revolution of consciousness that we are going through all over the world. People wake up realizing that we're in the process of destroying life as we know it. We're doing it. And we're starting to realize that, and that's the first step.

You gotta change perception, and erstwhile you change perception, you start to change actions that change reality. This is what we request to focus on now – what actions we take to reverse it.

Traveling around the planet and speaking at various events, I announcement a real awakening everywhere. However, whenever there is simply a revolution, the position quo resists – those who have money and power do not want to see change. For most of my life, I've trained martial arts and I know that if I stand in front of a guy who's bigger and stronger than me, I'm not trying to beat him by force – I'm utilizing his energy against him. And I think we can apply this model to today's situation – erstwhile opposition comes from the position quo, we take energy from this opposition and we realize that they put it up due to the fact that they know they're losing. Now is the time for those who are truly determined to make changes, to take courage and to realize that opposition to this should give us the strength to proceed to act and to strive for greater changes, due to the fact that we know that this must happen.

In conclusion, I feel that we are very fortunate to be surviving in these times, due to the fact that we have a large chance to do something that humanity has never done before.

We are on the verge of a large movement, which past will mention, and if we succeed, it will say, “ Fortunately, they did what they did.” If we fail, there will be no more historians who will look back at these times! [laughs]

Wherever I go, I am very encouraged by the number of people who wake up and want to make changes, so I think I'm fortunate due to the fact that I have the chance to perceive to them, and I besides want to inspire people to proceed working for the essential changes. If I am always in Poland, I will give a lecture on everything that we have done wrong, due to the fact that these are interesting stories that make the background, but the ending always reads, “What can you do?” And here's what you can do: I tell people to ask themselves 5 questions that lead to what they can do and which are included in my book.

The first question is: “What would I want to do for the remainder of my life? What will bring me the top satisfaction?’ This is simply a truly crucial question that we should ask ourselves at all phase of our lives. I would answer them, saying, “I want to write. I love writing. I'm writing now. I'm writing a novel." And my friend, who is on the another side of the spectrum, is simply a carpenter, says, "I want to work with my hands on wood."

The second question is: "How can I do this in a way that will aid transform a deadly economy into a life economy?" I would say, “I will compose books that will inspire people.” And my carpenter friend would say, “I will only usage organic materials and plant a tree for all tree I have cut down.”

The 3rd question is: “What is stopping me? What stops me from acting?’ As a writer, I would say: “I know I gotta compose at least 2 hours a day if I want to be an effective writer. I just don't have time.” And my carpenter friend would say, “My customers don’t want to spend extra money to plant trees or usage organic wood.”

The 4th question is: “What happens erstwhile I change my perception? How do I change my perception?" My answer would be, "I could turn off the tv for 2 hours at night and write, or get up a small early all morning to write." And my carpenter friend would say: “I will tell my customers that if they pay a small more for green wood, it is not a cost, it is an investment in the future. They invest in the future."

And the 5th question is, "What action will I take immediately?" Well, the author has to sit down and start writing, and the carpenter builds cabinets or sustainable timber houses and tells his customers: “We do this for a reason. We do it for the future, it's an investment." So I think that each of us, whether you're a teacher, a student, a parent, a child, a plumber, a carpenter, a journalist, whatever you do, you can always ask yourself these 5 questions. And ask them rather often, due to the fact that at least the last 3 will change periodically.

We can all play a function in this amazing time erstwhile we are going through this reflection and we know that we request to transform what it means to be people – to be people on this planet.

It's an amazing time to live and do it.

Thank you for talking to me.

[*] The conversation was held in September 2024, even before the U.S. presidential election.