Anna Dryjanska: Are you an agent of bishops?
Simon Holovnia: Who?
I've written down top 5 net concerns about you. And 1 comment is repeated peculiarly often: the presumption that you are an agent of bishops in politics. There are circumstantial evidence: you tried to join the order twice.
Yeah, 25 years ago. And I figured I didn't belong.
I effort to believe, I practice, it is simply a very crucial sphere for me, but I am besides very critical of how the organization Church in Poland is presently going.
I've been expressing this for a long time. Remember that during the presidential run I was denied communion in the church, I was besides publically scolded and insulted with any ambon. I am surely not a pet of the Polish Episcopal.
I believe that the Church should be separated from you. After all, if I were a "agent of bishops", I would not put immediately, as the first program proposal developed by our think tank, a program of 12 points of chapter of the Church from you.
Now you're in opposition, you can say anything. The question is, what will you do after the election?
I'm gonna do precisely what I'm talking about right now due to the fact that I have 1 name and 1 name. I believe that for the sake of the State, but besides for the sake of the Church, the Church and the State must be separated as shortly as possible. You gotta halt flying with the slogans "and the Church this, and the Church that," just sit down and do it. And I'm ready to do it.
So talking about me being a bishop's agent is as sensible as being a reptilian or a German agent.
Recently I read on any portal that I am a Jesuit agent, on another – that the left-wing exhibition of Brussels, somewhere else, convinced that we were founded by PiS licensed opposition which, as needed, would turn around, and in another place that we were founded by Tusk a method organization that pretends to be different, and in fact is the same.
More than 2 years in politics have made me immune to reading nonsense about myself. Of course, they have only 1 goal – the old Latin proverb "audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret", or glass boldly, always adheres to something.
Someone always thinks that if you're in politics, you can be thrown at shit. This is full bullshit. It is besides hard for me to find individual who approached the chapter of the Church from you as honestly as Poland 2050.
Donald Tusk talks about it too, the Left has always demanded it.
Except that we have not a password, but to the pain a concrete plan, written out for points and actions. And the determination to carry out this plan.
I'd be happy to sit with Donald and Włodek at least next day to say, "Look, here are our 12 points that have been online for 2 years, what do you think? If we have a coalition, do the 12, do you want to do the 11 or do you want to add 2 of yours?"
Concordat: Say or Leave?
Concordats besides have Estonia, Portugal, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia and many another countries. So what? In our public debate with the concordat, which is not easy to pronounce, the symbol has become – the bag into which all the problems on the line of the State – the Church and the mammoths of people are thrown, that if the concordat disappears, they will disappear.
Meanwhile, there's quite a few concrete work to do without getting fixed on the concordat. First of all, we request to change the interpretative declaration to the concordat, which has not been changed here since Cimoszewicz. And then I'll make our points.
For example, it cannot be that the concordat states that the State provides conditions for teaching religion in schools, and in practice the bishop has the right to veto how many hours it will be. This needs to be lifted immediately. Not the bishop, not even the minister, should decide this, but the school community: how many spiritual lessons it wants to order for its students, due to the fact that specified needs.
So it is problematic to usage the concordat alternatively than the fact that the concordat exists. This is simply a substance which the opposition after winning the election can do right away.
What about the Joint Government and Episcopal Commission? The Roman Catholic Church is privileged due to the fact that it has "owned" and another religions are grouped in a separate, collective commission.
I have not studied this subject at all, but I do not see any problem that the matters of all spiritual denominations are dealt with within a single committee at the Ministry of the Interior and Administration.
However, this is not the biggest of problems in the relations between the State and the Church.
A large problem is the confusion of order, secular and religious. This, on your part, can only be reversed by a clear and decisive attitude of politicians who would gotta halt treating the Church like a nibble, due to the fact that it is simply a reserve of possible voters – and in this, let's agree, it aimed not only the PiS.
The possible corruption mechanics in this relation is the Church Fund, whose amount always determines the current seismic majority. It should be abolished and replaced by a taxation write-off to increase the limit of donations, so that people decide which Church wants to support, if at all.
The issue of price lists in cemeteries must be arranged and taken into account. There are quite a few things that should be done as shortly as possible.
How do you imagine Poland after the Law and Justice?
I'd like that vacuum cleaner to run to clean up after the Law and Justice, to work intensely, but as short as possible. My full adult life I observe this spelled ellipse in politics: a fresh power comes and through a word or 2 tells that I'm sorry, but I can't do what she promised, due to the fact that the predecessors, so we'll clean and clean.
The PiS led this communicative to the championship. Listen: they continue, after 7 years of power, to be guerrillas from the forest, bravely defending themselves against the ensnaring large army of 'salon', European—and not only the devils—they constantly tirelessly clean in Tusk, constantly 'order' binds their hands and wings.
I do not want the next election and what will come after them to be another installment of the civilian war of the PiS with the PO, which will watch with expanding discouragement of 15 million voters who will say that it is not their war, not their business, and they will not go to elections.
We no longer have time for an interior war. It blocks us and does not let us to deal with the most crucial issues: the energy transformation, which the absence of which will shortly drive us into poverty, the quality of public services, without which the next pandemic will kill half a million, not 2 100 1000 of us, raising the level of education, without which we will become a country of assembly...
The planet won't truly wait for us. He's not waiting anymore. Sure, the PiS needs to be rushed as shortly as possible, but like an intruder, like an obstacle that blocks the door erstwhile an ambulance came to the patient from the heart attack. It should be about the patient, not the hooligan in the door.
I realize that it is easier for any people to sale their goods with fear, and I would alternatively rise hope – it is better fuel. As it will only be about fear – these elections will again be about mobilising 2 iron electorates of the 2 largest parties, about nothing more.
And I want to motivate the vote even any of the 50% of Poles who have stayed at home on election day. Show them they can hope for something better. And to win by a majority, a million or 2 votes, so that Kaczyński doesn't think about falsifying the results or giving up power.
The first example from the shore: pelting children with pedophilia in a fresh book by Minister Czarnek to HiT. It's hard to rise the level of education without making order in this lot. And it's not a day job.
That's right, but it shouldn't take 4 years. You can't live in a home where a vacuum cleaner works all the time. See how many people emigrated from Poland due to the fact that they had had adequate of this noise. They said they'd alternatively live like this, they'd alternatively start again somewhere else.
The idiotisms of Czarnek must be sent to the lame as well as his concept of a school of the 19th century, but we must have ready fresh solutions to replace them. Poland 2050 already has them.
On our democratic side, there is simply quite a few desire to clean up after the Law and Justice, public media, state-owned companies... It should be done, but you can't fix it.
And immediately show the next step: honestly tell people what we do, why. Cleaning up the brothel the Law and Justice leaves in the country will not be easy or pleasant, due to the fact that these guys are not another civilised political party, they effort to change the strategy of the Polish Republic, but I did not deal with politics to make it easy and pleasant for me.
The polls give the opposition a chance to take power – of course, assuming that after the election you will get along.
I believe in winning, but I don't know what her scale is. It must be a wave. And a wave is only possible if people imagine another planet and believe in it. Fear is simply a stronger stimulus, but only hope can let us not to lose our governments as shortly as we take over.
I see how tired people are of politics. I am driving around Poland now, and this tiredness is visible everywhere. Aversion, anger, powerlessness, frustration... These are emotions that dominate the country. They are hard to build election success on.
But I besides see the real joy of our successes – and of those crucial for circumstantial groups of people, like almost 900 students from Belarus and later from Ukraine, who have been teaching Polish for a year, but besides those crucial for hundreds of thousands of Poles and Poles, how to accomplish our thought of credit holidays.
That's why I truly want us to sit down with Kosiniak, with Tuski and with Czarzasty, and talk about school, transportation, wellness care... It's time for something positive. People want to live normally, and they're waiting for what we gotta offer them, and we have a lot.
Do you regret crying over the Constitution?
Nope. We talk 2 years after the first circular of presidential elections. That run was an incredible experience. So many twists, so many scams that PiS did...
Just the PiS?
I learned then how unclean, or simply stupid, shortsighted, it can be a game, besides on the side of those who are on the "our" side - they have the most beautiful values on the banners. This mode even turns on the best, coolest, good intentions. At the end there's always self-absolution: "Sorry, that's politics."
Does it turn on to you, too?
This is 1 of the strongest temptations in politics, a origin of fraud, nepotism, egotism: "If I want to do well – everything I do is by definition good." The end justifies the means. Victims gotta be. I am aware of this mechanism, and I hope to be effective with the alarm system.
To your question, I do not regret crying over the Constitution. These were tears of anger, powerlessness and frustration toward the insolence of the highest officials of my state.
I remember that morning: I came back from a walk loaded with information that the Law and Justice would violate the Constitution again. I thought, "What the fuck, I can't anymore," and it just came out of me.
After all, I did not quack there, but – agitated to the limits – swore revenge to them. erstwhile I go out to people, I want to show them who I am. I'm not gonna pretend. If individual expects to get a jukebox built by the PR, individual who will take everything with a stone face, then they must look elsewhere.
They laughed at you.
So what? After all, I spoke to Mirk Rozanski, the erstwhile commander-in-chief of the Polish army, my advisor, a tough guy as little. He calculated all the US presidents, generals, leaders who – agitated or agitated – cried publicly.
So fundamentally present I am laughing at the poverty–machasism of any of our agrarian eaters, whose only political competence is jumping on Twitter on a wave that individual else did. If there's something I'm sorry about today, it's that I made them this wave, and they could ride it for a while. They didn't deserve it.
Would you do the same today?
Nope. First, so as not to give satisfaction to the above mentioned. Secondly, present I see that it is not only worth tears, but all emotions. You gotta tighten your fists and do what you gotta do. Today, if I get emotional, it's what happens at home. I have a wife, 2 small daughters – in them I place the deepest feelings.
What's your rage today?
Apart from the failure of time and artificial divisions promoted by Kaczyński? How our country's global position has fallen. erstwhile we go to Brussels, we see how the Polish government is treated.
How?
When individual is waiting for him to sit at the table again, due to the fact that for now he's standing there, sitting under him, screaming, dancing, banging his shoe on the counter, doing everything, just not usually talking. We didn't deserve what they were doing to us.
Today, through Putin's war, we are one more time at the centre of the world's interest. We became a front country. We request a unchangeable relation with our neighbors. We request money. The last thing the planet needs and we request is to become another Hungarians of Orban. In a place like this, at a time like this.
A fewer more years of the governments of these goons, and Poland will completely waste its possible in the EU, the concept of "Europe of 2 speeds" where we will be in the latter, or the third. Kaczyński will go distant in those fewer years – and my children will gotta hang out with this crap he leaves to them. What right does he waste them, not his life?!
What else makes you tense or upset?
It pisses me off that our money is spent on stupidity alternatively of on the things it should be spent on. Do you know what thousands of Poles dream about now? A fresh textbook for national mythology? An airship? Putting kids in jail due to the fact that that's what our government does?
Nope. Thousands of Poles present dream about buying a heat pump for their own money, possibly with small support from the state. due to the fact that the government is lying about adequate coal and gas for the coming winter. And the heat pumps are gone.
People hear that the current is expected to increase by 200 percent next year. They want to start a photovoltaic. Ba – they would like to make money on electricity production, setting up a tiny power plant with their neighbor. But no – due to the fact that the networks refuse, due to the fact that prosumers request to be increased. And this is erstwhile the government gets over PLN 20 billion all year from emissions trading, which is practically nothing.
You're asking me what pisses me off? It pisses me off – due to this waste of time and money we are so susceptible to Putin's blackmail today.
It besides pisses me off how frequently Polish politics are about nothing. Its subject is not the problems that request to be solved, but the boyic burning of who has bigger – let's say fists. This cult of strength, of political muscles, the worship of the notion of potential.
I see any unworked complexes in it, sometimes I feel sick erstwhile I look at how many couples go to these fracking fights, deliberalizing who will have 2 percent points more and who will have 3 percent points less.
When I went to politics, I was convinced that a acquainted face alone was not adequate to make a concrete proposal on the table. After 2 years, our program has thousands of pages, from the Church-State relationship, through wellness protection, education reform, to combating climate disaster.
We truly did that lesson. And today, we've got another people downloading from us. The Law and Justice "borrow" quite a few our stuff. This was the first discipline I received in politics: copyrights do not apply here.
I just spoke to a pensioner who supports the Law and Justice. He gave me his view of the energy debate. He said that if the situation worsens and he can't afford the fire, then there's no problem collecting the wood. He argued that there would be nothing for PO in Poland, so besides forests. And you're here about photovoltaics and heat pumps.
You can't convince everyone, possibly that you can. Yeah. The desire to convince everyone is temptation. I will quote Yuval Noah Harari: if any politician in liberal democracy has much more than 50% of support, then either war is ongoing or something is incorrect with this liberal democracy.
Not all people must be persuaded, but adequate people to take work for Poland. The Democratic opposition must win 15–20 percent of the votes, i.e. convince 2-3 million more Poles than the PiS.
We, Poland 2050, request to convince another 4–7% of voters. These are not incalculable values. Let us not waste energy on idle attempts to buy from Kurski TVs those who do not want to be redeemed from them.
And we have something to convince. due to the fact that we truly know what to do to make the home 23rd and not 13th degrees in winter. To make the kid in simple school fluent in English.
When I go to Silesia and I talk to miners, I know they could embarrass quite a few politicians. They are well aware that energy transformation is something that simply needs to be done. "Stop talking about holy coal and show us a plan," they say. They want to know erstwhile and how they'll be able to reclassified, where they'll find work, what will happen to their children.
As Poland 2050, we consider this issue a priority. At 1 time, green politics associated people with conventional fashion, something abstract that they don't gotta care about. Today, they know that the energy transformation is simply a major national issue: 1 that determines the temperature of their home and whether they will have hot water.
Warm water in the tap?
It is simply a paradox of past that warm water in the tap, which so many complained about as a mark besides small ambition, after 30 years of transformation can become a luxury. But it's not funny.
A Tusk doesn't piss you off? The minute he returned, Poland's 2050 support melted.
Nope. It's a challenge. Of course, you can go into worship and ask if you didn't come back, we'd be in a different place today. We would besides be in a different place if, like Modern or Kukiz’15, we entered the marketplace six months before the election. If we had a calendar like them, we would have over 20 percent support and a solid representation in the Sejm.
Well, possibly you should have done that alternatively of knowing?
After the presidential election, I sat down with six people who were left of my staff and we began to wonder if this was the minute where we had to go home. But we saw all those people who joined the campaign, called the regions, talked to everyone who got involved.
And then I decided that we had to do something, build that we couldn't waste that potential. That what we built is the answer to the real needs of many people, and they didn't vanish erstwhile Duda became president.
We want to change Poland. The last thing I want is simply a political ephemeral company. I don't want a patch of a man who deals with politics from a jump and then pulls out. erstwhile I do politics, I do politics. It won't last forever, but if I'm involved, it's 100 percent.
I hear the bitterness in your voice.
I'd call it realism. You know, those 3 years was a horror movie. Organizational, financial horror.
We race political corporations that get tens of millions of zlotys all year and don't gotta worry about anything. The biggest parties that have been in operation for 20 years do not wonder if the collection this period will affect adequate to make political action, buy a billboard or make a spot. I inactive gotta number on my wage on our move. These are problems that the top players have no idea.
I hope that, after the elections, our organization will receive this organization reinforcement that parliamentary parties have. It's not just about money, it's about the stableness they carry. Then we won't gotta plan from day to day, but we will yet be able to act long-term. So reinforced we will fight in the next election at full stake.
Are you tired?
It's been tough, hard places, but we've beaten all these corners. We made it. We can't be stopped, really. These 3 years were needed to learn a lesson about politics that can't be taken from stories or textbooks.
What did you learn?
I saw how different this is from the 1 where average people work. They frequently say that politics is simply a mess, a swamp, a cesspool, they ask me why I'm involved.
This harsh assessment comes from people instinctively sensing the dramatic incompatibility of the planet in which they live, with the planet of politics. And this diagnosis is unfortunately frequently correct. Politics is frequently a planet based on completely reversed values than the ones we live on all day.
Like what?
In politics, the value is not telling the truth, but not telling the truth. This is the minute I sit with individual at 1 table, we talk, we break up, and the next day I open the paper and read that this politician says something completely different than what we agreed during our conversation.
Sometimes even this volt occurs within hours. Complete reversal: white is black, black is white.
Then on any occasion, I ask him what happened. We talked, we agreed. Why...? "You know, but it's politics," I hear.
How much time and effort would we save if white was white and black was black? How many problems in Poland would be solved already? That is why I am so stubborn about the request for a fresh policy.
Sounds beautiful, but naive.
And if there's a vicinity that steals bikes and I say they shouldn't bargain them, I'll hear "sounds beautiful, but naively?" let me to keep religion in a planet where stealing bicycles is not a standard, and a politician tells the truth, as an engineer, a doctor or a teacher must say.
Such a planet simply costs us a lot little in service. At a time erstwhile I was active in business training, I learned that there are companies that spend 60-70% of their budget on lawyers who defend her from the disloyalty of clients. It's just the handling of default mistrust.
I can't believe how much resources we waste due to the fact that we can't trust on each other.
I remember the Reichs, it was the first specified action of the democratic opposition. We're expected to be putting together a city presidential candidate. It's all been on the line until the last minute.
I remember those hot calls we made to each another all fewer minutes. 1 called the another to see if the another guy got along quietly with the 3rd guy, and he wouldn't fool him. And over and over for half a day.
Suddenly it turns out that 1 of us called a candidate and encouraged him to attend a solo press conference, only with him. The candidate calls another leaders and asks if they know that due to the fact that he feels confused.
Fortunately – we all passed this exam. The minute we got to Rzeszów and met at the town hall, there was a large "uff!". And this beautiful city now has a wise president.
I hope I showed my colleagues that we don't like to plot. We are pragmatic, very program-oriented, solutions. erstwhile we get along, we get along. We don't go behind anybody's back.
However, I think it is now time for us to – alternatively of looking at who will come and who will turn over and make certain that mine is on top – start building a real level of trust among ourselves.
If we win what I believe, we'll be our closest coworkers, together we'll gotta agree and make damn hard decisions in super hard conditions. It won't be prepared in 2 minutes, just like that. That's what I miss today. Just to be clear, I truly like all these guys. They're very intelligent people.
All of them? You always like individual more, individual less, individual at all.
I come to politics with a reasonably rich baggage of human relations. I can appreciate things.
I like Donald Tusk's cut sense of humor, his instant punches. I know this competition, I can appreciate a worthy sparringpartner. With Vladimir the Black One, who has a immense library, it is not only wonderful to talk about books. Vladek Kosiniak-Kamysz is an evenement at all – everyone respects him, there is no individual to talk sick of him. It brings peace to the conversation, rationality.
I truly like them, but I know what we're playing. I hope that we will be able to kind things out so that we can go out and offer them a product that will change their lives. I stress: their lives. due to the fact that politics shouldn't be about us, politics is about the house, not about the digger or the pot that this home is expected to build.
Do you feel safe with any of the leaders of the democratic opposition to turn your back on him?
(Laughter)
Is that so?
Politically? Nope. If we're talking about individual relationships, yes. In politics, you can't turn your back due to the fact that it's risky to even step aside.
I think it's exhausting.
Tired? Sure. But what am I expected to do with it? I'm a realist. I don't want us to abruptly be a bunch of best friends, but I want us to be honest with each other. No, it's the top of affection, it's the bottom of hatred and snorting.
You like Jarosław Gowin too?
Yeah. Although I think he made a critical mistake. He left the government besides late.
We talked to him while he was inactive in the United Right. We explained to him that if he wanted to change the destiny of Poland, he had to leave the government and turn to the democratic opposition. Then we could make a method government, prepare fair elections, halt the demolition of Poland even then.
The outgoing Gowin would control the narrative, the Gowin would be thrown out for Kaczyński's narrative.
When it ended, we all know. Gowin's been through hell. I have respect for him as a man, I appreciated and appreciated his accomplishments before political times, but I do not see a political future with him.
I'm told you're expected to tie a three-way electoral alliance, Mr. Kosiniak and Gowin. This is the fresh quality in politics: the debut organization plus the old eaters?
I don't know about that. We seriously consider the request to establish tactical pre-election alliances, but not in this configuration and most likely in a fewer months. Nor can it be excluded that the support for the Law and Justice will fall to 20%. And then each of us will be able to take off safely.
This would be best for democracy – it will guarantee the highest attendance, more people will have their representatives in parliament. However, if this does not happen, you will gotta face d’Hondt together. We have the cards we have.
The PiS continues to evidence support at around 35 percent.
It won't take long. More than a year before the 2015 elections, the platform had even more, and it drove up to the minute of voting for 24 percent. And present the situation is dramatically worse for the rulers than then.
All the indicators of power and social sentiment are flying around the neck. Inflation consumes people's money, air smells like recession, credit payments are evidence high, we already know that there will be no coal in the winter, and there will most likely be no gas.
This will be the hardest winter in decades. And the most painful presentation of the inability of the rulers in the past of our post-communist freedom.
The Prime Minister's position is weakening, Ziobro blackmails Kaczyński, they are radically limited by the area for manoeuvre – they have forced us into a crisis so deep that they have already limited themselves the anticipation of printing money and giving it to the right and to the left. If their people don't wipe out for cold radiators and poverty, they won't cut the budget for 2023 in which they will gotta spend twice as much on debt handling and billions more on the army.
We are in the midst of the deepest crisis – economic, geopolitical, state, citizens' assurance in the state – for years. The most crucial election in 30 years. The request to find a fast answer to the question: how to give people hope, not only to rise them a fear of reality that sees how hard it is.
This is simply a subject for me today, not ritual fixatives and rituals around 1 list.
How do you feel about these constant questions about the list?
I was very intrigued at first. In time, I concluded that this was already a spiritual matter. I know what I'm saying due to the fact that I have experience in spiritual narrative. The Church of the 1 Letter, which has its holy books, priests, rites...
Who's the Pope?
It is clear (Laughter). This Church has its media, its followers, missionaries, researchers.
For a year now, we've been showing, proving, explaining that this could be dangerous. Take a million voters distant from the polls. End up, like in Hungary - translating into Polish realities: Kaczyński's people can put a large sign “Für Deutschland, Donald Tusk” on all poster of Biedronia, Gowin or Kosiniak.
Tusk is simply a dry politician, aware of the risk.
I realize the motivation behind this, and I'm sick of the PiS, for a bow, too, and I think you gotta do everything you can to drive them to 4 winds. But I besides admit that the discussion with those who say: so halt "screaming", hop on the 1 list managed by the PO, can be difficult.
By talking to them, whether reading their comments on Twitter or in "Gazeta Wyborcza" - and most of all I like anonymous letters from readers there - I feel that they have a sincere regret for me that I have misdirected my fate, generating serious dissonance.
I should have joined the PO today, made an appointment with Donald, asked him politely for a 1 in Sieradz, and yet could have a remainder with relief, again would have been only two, well known for 20 years worlds – the good one, and the bad one.
Before the elections – one more time the miraculous mobilisation of "ours", triumphant polls, joyful manifestations, and later – as I think already 8 or 9 times in a row – the hangover on the post-election Monday. due to the fact that it turned out that if the game is going to mobilize the iron electorate of the PiS and the opposition - centered around the biggest polling PO - then this war is always lost.
I'm accused of having a Tusk complex, of being angry with him, of interfering with my plans to become an opposition leader. full bullshit. After all, erstwhile we had 25 percent, and the PO was 16, I said – and for this there is simply a twelve evidence in interviews - that I do not want to be it, that it is time for fresh reasoning about politics, not more leaders from Grunwald.
I'm a pragmatist, I want to win due to the fact that I want to make a change. I'll do whatever it takes to accomplish it. And I have ambitions elsewhere – at home, in books, I do not dream about stools, palaces or an eagle card. I want to change politics, not get caught up in it.
My full adult life I voted for the UW or the PO, in the last fewer elections I decidedly "against the PiS" than for. And I thought I inactive didn't want to have a real choice. How many specified people are in Poland. If our current 12% – over 2 million Poles – is not enough?
In the last 2 months, our negative electorate has fallen by 10 percent points. It means that the erstwhile PiS voters have just paid highly advanced bills for electricity and went to the store, and it turns out that inflation is so large that they can no longer afford many things. This crisis, Kurski's propaganda truly won't cover.
But possibly she'll be covered by Kaczyński's sense of LGBT Poles?
Not anymore. Kaczyński tried that number, it's not gonna make him grow bigger. He knows that now this election will be all about mobilisation and demobilization. At least that's his vision. He wants to motivate his own and discourage the others. That's why he's talking these idiots. He's not talking to us. Kaczyński has long shown the mediate finger of 83 percent of society. He wins with support – considering attendance - 17 percent of adult Poles.
Humiliation of people cannot be left unanswered, but it is besides impossible to let Kaczyński get active in this dirty game.
It must be said, “Mr. Kaczyński, you are an abomination and you should confess yourself for disdaining people. You make tears in many Polish homes and you should apologize for that. alternatively of fighting gays, tell them why you've led to the situation that people gotta decision out of their apartments due to the fact that they can't afford to pay fees, why they can't make average purchases, why fuel becomes luxury.”
Therefore, I do not regulation out that Kaczyński will decide to throw on the tape and set up accelerated elections to escape it. And in the meantime, he will do anything to destruct the 10-12 percent support that Poland has 2050, due to the fact that then he will have a 3rd word in his pocket. This is another reason why the opposition, and especially the Platform, should realize that it is not worth digging holes under itself.
Would you like to know whether your wife can halt unwanted pregnancy or not, decide whether or not to pass by accidentally, alternatively than herself? due to the fact that on a micro scale, you can present a referendum on the abortion you advocate.
And why do we agree that this "accidental passerby" should decide who and what my kid will teach? Or – how did he treat and on what basis did he state the death of my loved ones? Or – how will my company be treated? Why should he decide whether my kid will be a citizen of the European Union or not?
After all, it is this "accidental passing" that decides how, not in a referendum, choosing a associate or a Member?
If we've agreed to democracy, that's how it has to be. In all case that makes us different. We live in a community where we have different opinions on the subject. However, we must have a right to regulate our common functioning.
There are people who say, "the right to abortion is simply a human right, you can't decide that for a woman." Others say, "the right of the fetus to live is the right of man." If you believe in any of these things and you put it in an inviolable human rights deposition, there's no area for any conversation, no democracy.
So I say, "Not the law written under the conscience of Holowna, but the referendum." Why a referendum? Why should individual come and say that the vote of the representatives of the people in the Sejm is better than the direct vote of the citizens who elected them?
The nation is dumber than the MPs he chose? That's inactive democracy?
I came and said, "Your wife's the smartest female to have an abortion."
My wife has an opinion on this, as millions of Polish women have. But we must have legal regulations on this matter. It's the right thing to do. due to the fact that that's what democracy is. Our proposal is to do what Ireland did. And that's where it ended the way it ended: liberalisation.
On paper. In practice, access to the procedure is inactive difficult.
I see no another way than a referendum. That's my opinion. delight disagree with him. I think there must be a strong mandate to handle this matter. A strong mandate is just a referendum, asking for the opinion of not MPs, but straight the sovereign - Poles.
So if you were asking me what I would do if I had the power to reconstruct the position quo ante, which is the abortion compromise of the 1990s, and then...
What compromise? Society protested the ban. Women have been doing what they want for 30 years. They interrupt unwanted pregnancy simply due to the fact that they do not want it, and these 3 dramatic exceptions from the 1993 Act are only a fraction of the reasons.
No 1 agreed with that solution. It was besides conservative for some, besides liberal for others. But this disagreement was the only agreement we had over the years. We couldn't afford any other. Kaczyński came and blew it, spitting in the face of millions of Polish women. due to the fact that he needed it for political purposes.
Do you realize as a politician that for me, women and citizens, a referendum that will indicate if I can halt my unwanted pregnancy is as reasonable as a referendum, or can you do a vasectomy?
I realize you might have a position like this. And I don't share it for the reasons I put above.
You know whether you want to or not. It's your body. It's no of my business. And vice versa.
It's just that my worldview assumes that abortion isn't just about my interior organs, it's about another being. It's not just a substance of my seeds, it's a question of any existence to which we either attribute certain laws, certain qualities, or not.
We have different views on this. I realize that, I respect that. And I'm not imposing my opinion on others, either. In our movement there is no and there will be no discipline in matters of conscience, in this peculiar case I have a distinctly different opinion than much of our politicians and politicians.
What more can I do than ask my vote to be treated in law-making like yours? I presume it is very likely that in the event of a vote, a referendum, I will be voted on. And yet, I will inactive consider them a right solution, and I will not change my head either.
Do you know that regardless of the result of a possible referendum, women will inactive do what they do now: make their own decisions? fresh restrictions – like Kaczyński's ban and a ban from 30 years ago – will be fiction.
That is why you should see this and give the public the chance to talk out. It's besides crucial to make her the subject of further shoving somewhere in the mediate of the night in the seismic hall. Well, in the civilian consultation process, written questions. The seriousness of the referendum vote. Anyone asked for your opinion.
The dispute won't go away. This issue will always vary. But what we can do is give ourselves to everyone, not only Kaczyński, bishops, or pro-abortion activists, effectively and bindingly, in the most serious form provided for by the Constitution, to speak.
What have you learned as a politician about the media?
I've worked in the media for a 4th of a century, I've done radio, I've done television, I've worked in journals, I've worked in weekly newspapers, I've been working on the Internet. I am genuinely amazed at how much political journalism has blurred the line between information and publicism.
I remember from the beginning of my work in "Gazeta Wyborcza" that we were doing layouts, in which the writer first gave facts about a given case, and only then, under a large "Comment", wrote what he thought about it. Now everything is mixed.
In any of my colleagues, I am amazed by the spiritual belief that the political organization is right. Identity media is not only on the right stage. With my bare eye, I see reporter gangsters, triggers, most of the tabloids, carrying out orders from our organization competition.
But besides in respectable titles or stations I sometimes see publicists, but besides journalists surviving from what their "sources" will give them, or creators of political organization narratives.
At first, I asked you consecutive out: You're going one-to-one narration that this MP insulates you? Is this how you put the material so everyone but your idol would look like a moron? I know how to make lyrics, news material, it's manipulation.
I see large eyes, misunderstanding, due to the fact that – but how? You gotta take the Law and Justice distant from power, don't you? This is the subject of a truly powerful conversation: should the media, but also, for example, any polls, study to people the reality or make it?
You're 1 of the victims of those gangsters?
I don't think of myself in those categories. I just see something's profoundly incorrect here.
We did our job. We were told we wouldn't last a year, we survived over two. We have developed an association that does large work in local Poland, but besides last year on the border, we are building a party, we have a think tank that produced thousands of pages of programs.
And then I hear on any jeremiada radio, "Oh, due to the fact that you don't know what Holownia is about due to the fact that he doesn't have a program." I'm sending out thousands of pages. And then I hear, "Oh, it's besides long, you request passwords and populism, it works."
People, delight remember, how to delight you (Laughter)? After what I saw on this side and learned about the media, I don't know if I could always go back to them again. What else – to compose books. In fact, I late signed a contract for another, a fewer things possibly I'll tell you details (Laughter).
Is there gonna be a best seller?
I am glad that, together, my books and those that I co-authored have spread in almost a million copies, but present the marketplace is highly difficult, so I do not know what it will be like. I'm besides a small tense about going back to this class after so long a break, but I love a challenge.
