For respective weeks now, thousands of demonstrations have been taking place on Tbilisi streets. Protesters argue the alleged Russian Act. This law would registry any abroad association with more than 20% of abroad funding. There are not only demonstrators against the government project, but besides the president of Georgia. The issue of Georgia's accession to the structures of the European Union and the threat from Russia is besides discussed. Giorgi Labaga, American lecturer at Tbilisi State University, journalist, protest associate in Georgia, talks about the situation in Georgia. The conversation was conducted by Hanna Szymerska.
Hanna Szymerska: In fresh weeks we have heard about protests in Georgia. The subject of our discussion will be both demonstrations and a broader political situation in the state. Giorgi, thank you for accepting my invitation. We've all heard about protests in your country, but who, and why, basically, is protesting?
Giorgi Labaga: Thank you, Hanna, for inviting me. Firstly, I would like to stress my joy from proceeding the voices of the Tbilisi streets through Europe. Demonstrators are of the full section of society, including liberals, conservatives, centrists, Christians, atheists and Muslims. They want freedom, independence, sovereignty. In our constitution, we wrote that we want to integrate with the remainder of the free world. This is the most crucial thing for us, and our private differences of view do not hinder it. Then we'll discuss our visions for the state. Let's start with the case. I will besides point out that protests have been supported by students in fresh days. My students were involved. I'm arrogant of them, I'm arrogant that they feel specified work for our country. That they've been missing class for the past week to go out on the streets and manifest.
HS: Let's focus on the bill you're protesting. In many countries there are restrictions on the activities of abroad organizations, media etc. Why do you think the Georgian law governing the activities of abroad associations should not be passed?
GL: That's an crucial question. I have met with many comparisons of this law to acts in force in democratic countries. Georgian government likes to invoke, for example, American law on abroad organizations from 1938. This law regulates lobbying outside of the United States. For example, if we have an organization outside the United States that is straight lobbying for another country, that organization is registered. But there's a large difference between this bill and a Georgian task that forces any foreign-supported organization to registry as an entity creating an alien narrative. virtually everyone. Imagine that you are active in an organization promoting culture, translating the book and getting money from the Polish embassy. Then you'd gotta registry as a abroad influence agent due to the fact that your translation of more than 20% is paid from embassy money. The same would apply to the foundation dealing with teaching abroad languages and sponsored by Poland, France or any another country. That's nonsense. In the United States, there is no request to registry cultural activities specifically. It's about politics. With us, this bill would cover everything. In addition, we have a problem with the mountainous areas of Georgia, our towns are depopulating. There are abroad organizations that supply electricity and water to another people. They would besides be "agents" only because, working for the good of Georgia, they receive backing from abroad. Do you realize that? They'd be agents too. It offends me, it's a neo-bolsheva. All contacts with the West were regarded as communes. We don't want to live like this, it's the 21st century and democracy. The Georgians won't accept that.
HS: abroad media are not only Western and Russian, but besides your neighbours' media. I can imagine a situation where an Armenian or Azer would like to lobby for his imagination to resolve the conflict in Karabach. Each of the demonstrators, representing about 10 percent of the country's population, has their views on the activities of non-Georgian radio stations and associations. Do you think there should be another law on regulating abroad organizations? Or would you like "keine grenzen" on this matter?
GL: Of course, specified activities can be regulated in a different way than this nasty bill. For example, if the media are protesting Georgia's independency and territorial integrity, they are simply illegal. They can be subject to restrictions, even thrown out of the country if they proceed to preach specified theories. That law already exists. But we have another problem. In Georgia, there's propaganda in the Russian Sputnik and Russia Today, you most likely know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.
Of course.
GL: These media accuse Georgia of war in 2008. I think this violates our law. And the government's consequence can't be seen. I'm amazed to make anti-Western laws erstwhile these media are not regulated. And in addition, erstwhile the West supports Georgian infrastructure, it gives us about 2 billion dollars. Europe is trying to build this country from scratch, why should we make anti-European law? It's a mystery to me. We besides have the law regarding the profession of journalist, so if the government wants to regulate the activities of abroad journalists, then it has the means, no extremist change is needed. Let's start following what is.
HS: Protests besides have an anti-government dimension. But who are fundamentally the ruling Georgian Dreams party, and how did they come to power? Who is standing on 1 side of the barricade with protesting president Salome Zubarishvili?
GL: Salome in 2018 enjoyed the full support of Georgian Dream, they acted together. erstwhile Georgian Dreams came to power in 2012, they talked about the necessity of integration with the West. But they besides said they were pragmatists. They said Russia was our neighbor, but they didn't hide their views. In 2008, we had a war with Russia and Georgian Dreams in its run that “if they ruled, they would halt the war.” This pragmatism argues for a complicated situation, you know, there are wars in Ukraine, Israel, Palestine, Karabach. They say they want peace, they want it at all costs, due to the fact that Russia is simply a threat. After February 2022, they went into pro-Russian rhetoric. possibly not action, but rhetoric. From the beginning of the full-scale invasion, they said Georgia would not impose sanctions on Russia. That's what they said. Now they keep their deficiency of enthusiasm for the West. The organization spokesperson said we would cool our relation with Europe and the States. The Prime Minister said that the European Commission is metaphorically aiming at him, here he referred to the assassination of Robert Fico. It's getting dangerous to work with the West.
HS: And who is Salome Zurabishvili?
GL: In the last 2 years, Salome has cut off in any way from Georgian Dreams, which had to do with differences in approach to Ukraine and Zelenski. Georgia's president is the granddaughter of Georgian first wave migrants who left their homeland after Bolshevik aggression in 1921. Her parents live in France, she grew up in France. In Sakashvili's government, Salome was a abroad minister. triumph owes to experience in politics and its own biography. She is profoundly rooted in reasoning of the West, especially France. I don't think there's going to be a side-to-side with Georgian Dream attacking the West. These household connections and life will halt her. She'll proceed to support us.
HS: We will change the subject in light of not only the Georgian sea, but besides the EU flags on the streets of Tbilisi. Around 80% of Georgians support accession to EU structures. Although this is an alternate to pro-Russian politics, you are most likely aware that EU countries, regardless of anti-Russian rhetoric, had commercial relations with Russia. This happened after the annexation of Crimea and not all of us left after February 2022, especially if we look at the energy sector. At 1 point, for example, France sold military-use products to the Russians in 2014-2022. You think EU countries, given this fact, are trustworthy partners?
GL: That's a very good question. In the early 21st century Russia sought to make relations with Europe, as in 1815 after Napoleon's defeat. She especially tried to make them with Germany and France. I erstwhile listened to a German politician who claimed that trade with Russia would someway integrate it with the West. He believed that then Russia would become someway dependent on the West, and possibly it would be a small more democratic, a small more European. But that didn't happen, that thought didn't work out. And now Europe pays for it, Europe pays for killing Ukrainian children. And he's inactive buying that gas. But back to the question of why we want to be in the Union even though you have a trade relation with Russia. We have no choice. Russia now wants to regain its influence in the Caucasus, for example in Armenia, where president Nikol Paszynian is pro-European. Russia wants to occupy Ukraine, it already has Belarus in its sphere of influence, we do not want Georgia to be next. We already had EU candidate status. The last step is to negotiate. It would be a disaster for the Russian Federation that we do not want to return and do not return to russian times. The issue of EU trade with Russia is not simple. It's a long story. Austria, for example, is inactive buying gas from the Russians, but it is in our eyes that does not cancel it, we will not say that we want nothing to do with Austria. We have the support of the European nations. Poles are besides a European nation, I like Poland and Poles. We have shared experience, we feel your support. We must strengthen our relation and break out of this post-Soviet reality, not sink into it. Poland is part of Europe. Even in families, quarrels happen, and we want to join a large European family. We want to go forward, regardless of our past. We've survived the Tsar Empire and the USSR, and now we want to be free. We are a movement of free people that does not hinder the fact that any European countries buy Russian gas. The Russians catch Georgians from self-appointed republics and the trace of our citizens dies. Why should we stand by a country that tortures and kills our countrymen? The choice we made is very simple.
HS: Georgia is simply a beautiful conservative country. Russia frequently presents itself as a defender of conservative values fighting against the "dignified West". How do you mention to this propaganda motive?
GL: We have a problem with that. I'm trying to fight it myself. I say okay, Europe is progressive. You know, most Georgians don't support these gay parades and homomers, and Russia uses that as an argument against European integration. Trying to brainwash Georgians. On our way to Europe, we will come across these issues that we do not accept. They're utilizing it. By the way, the Georgian church is very conventional and has a strong position. See, I see the difference between conservatism and traditionalism. Conservativeism is an ideology that guards variables during values. During the French revolution, the Conservative was Chateaubriand, a reactionary. In the 19th century, the conservatives were monarchs, and in the 20th century, another people. That word requires redefining. Society has no political cognition to separate political conservatism from the fidelity of tradition. It's large for Russia. What can we do about it? We request to know how it is. Russia has a problem with alcoholism, abortion rates, divorce rates, drugs. And this is just an example. Hypocrites. It's a completely different nation. We effort to cultivate our traditions and prevent abortions. I think it is akin in Poland, for example. On the another hand, Belgium and the Netherlands are drifting to the left. However, this does not mean that they will interfere with the institution of our families. I explain it to everyone.
HS: Aren't you afraid of pushing forward a progressive agenda erstwhile you join the EU?
GL: Of course I'm afraid, but my friends and I are ready to talk. That's what democracy is all about. This is the difference between Russia and the EU. You can't say what you believe in in Russia. In general, last week, me and 300 another lecturers signed justifications to our students. And then the Prime Minister said that after the election he would improvement education. Deep down into what he said between the lines, I anticipate repression of those signed under justification. It won't be any reform. In Russian reality, if you disagree with the government, you have problems, your household has problems. In Europe, discussion is not easy, countries frequently disagree. But there's dialogue. Everyone has an opinion. We want to discuss, not be sent to prison with our families. We like discussion to the old russian panic system. I personally anticipate this full agenda. But no 1 always told us, "Georgian legalize gay marriages." Even Germany did not do so very early, and they are the EU's largest economy. Why would individual make our small country do that? I think that if the Union is curious in these "rights of minorities" in Georgia, no 1 will be amazed and we will discuss. I anticipate any change, but not revolutionary. Finally, Europe has started negotiations, knowing our culture and reality.
HS: In the autumn there will be parliamentary elections. How can the current situation affect them?
GL: Most protesters do not belong and do not support any party. That's the problem. Politicians should think about how to convince quite a few people. For us, further support for integration with the West and anti-Russianism is most important. Secondly, it is crucial for us to have no ties to the erstwhile rulers. I'm certain you know Sakashvili's character.
I know.
GL: If he ran for election, he would get half a million votes. But he has enemies. Half of Georgian Dream voters are against him and his government. What do we need? Pro-Western center. So that we can gather those affected by the Georgian organization of young people. And this problem needs to be solved.
HS: Thank you very much for talking to me.
GL: Thank you for your interest in this topic.
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