Daria Rózańska, naTemat.pl: Again, with the aid of wiretaps, they want to overthrow the Tusk government?
Counselor Dorota Brejza: – I am convinced that the minute of making these recordings public is not accidental. It was most likely about creating chaos, weakening the government.
It should be noted, however, that these recordings show nothing at all.
Giertych's patron, a recording character who has encouraged in fresh days to study electoral protests, believes that "tapes" are expected to cover it up.
I think a very precise political minute has been chosen. possibly besides to divert attention from people's expectations of counting votes.
Who and why wanted the right-wing media to release these recordings now?
Everything indicates that these are recordings obtained in 2019 utilizing Pegasus cyber weapons.
It's an different thing on many different levels: rudeness, release to the media something so openly criminal at the time of the ongoing proceedings. After all, Pegasus has been mentioned in Poland for years.
Obtained operational material should be utilized to prosecute if it contains a criminal element, if not, to be immediately destroyed. It's an work under the bill, not a vision.
These materials (the Tusk-Gierty tapes) were to be destroyed by commission in 2022. So individual copied them and turned them into the incorrect hands.
Pegasus was utilized by peculiar services, specifically by the Central Anti-corruption Office. And that's most likely where you gotta look to find out who got these materials and kept them. It's criminal behavior.
We are besides certain that Tusk-Gierty's conversation was recorded by Pegasus due to the fact that they were communicating via an net communicator.
I see it as a veiled threat. There's nothing in the published material, but announcement there's a message...
Can we have more?
Exactly. This is simply a communication issued by the criminal community related to the erstwhile authority and peculiar services. "You must be afraid, we've released something, but we can release more in a moment." Don't quit on threats like that. What was published does not actually contain any charge erstwhile it comes to content.
Secondly, tv workers who made the recordings public tried to disinformation that they had fresh material that proved completely public.
One of the recordings comes from a public channel on YT Roman Giertych.
If individual publishes specified a thing and tells their audience that it is valuable flavours brought by the informant, it shows the collapse of journalism. It's besides just making people look stupid.
So I see in this a threat we should not give up. On a different level, I see it as a inactive existing criminal network.
The CBA was appointed by the Law and Justice, and they are inactive working there favorably for this party. They said the CBA had to be removed. Now – for the presidency of Karol Nawrocki – this will not work. Do you request to get this institution in order to "not walk on the PiS belt"?
Definitely. That tape communicative showed that we inactive have a network of criminal connections in CBA. And in a transmission belt like in 2019. At the time, there was a media run against my husband at the interface of peculiar services, PiS politicians and government media.
This is simply a very bad forecast in the context of what this political-media environment has in mind. This requires the D.A.'s office to make a firm reekation, which is to cut off these behaviors, the categorical accounting of the people behind it.
I am convinced that this requires state action. And I hope they come soon. Besides, I've already heard the first announcement that the D.A.'s office is on the case. And I hope this happens, and the guilty will be judged.
We inactive do not know whether the people liable for copying and illegally making the recordings public are inactive not employed in the service.
It's truly unclear. The D.A.'s task is to explain the transmission process that most likely occurred between peculiar services. This is besides a task for the National Prosecutor's Office Group 3, which is presently on the Pegasus case. These materials should have been destroyed.
Looks like there's another problem coming back here, which is that the judges are giving approval to operate, but a small out of control?
The Pegasus affair showed the public that judicial oversight of operational control is in fact illusory. This requires decisive legislative changes. any steps have already been taken, for example, to amend the regulation on operational control forms.
It is crucial for citizens to feel safe. To make certain that no 1 breaks into their phones.
Do you think Poles feel safe now?
I have the impression that the public recordings make us citizens incapable to feel safe. We can see that a certain arrangement is inactive well. We know the dangers. past has shown us that Pegasus materials can be manipulated, as the writing media willingly did. Indeed, this is simply a immense threat – Pegasus was watched by many people.
Also from the then ruling party.
Yeah. It's a delicate subject, not all victims want to publically uncover their identity. And of course, there is an atmosphere of fear that I know very well. Fear, helplessness, fear. We experienced it in 2019. Then a man doesn't know if there's anything else on him.
We have raised the problem for years that we do not know what is going on with these materials.
Exactly: whose hands they hit and how they can be used. Poland – like Hungary – was taken a licence to usage Pegasus, which means that they had to know that politicians of the opposition were being overheard.
That's right. I know that sometimes the public expects the D.A. to settle everyone immediately. But it's not always possible. I'm watching squad 3 on the Pegasus case. The first charges have already been filed. I think we must wait patiently for this and not give in to this atmosphere of fear.
How do you measure the work of the Pegasus Investigation Committee?
The committee faced a hard task – it had to face many situations...
With insufficient government and CBA support?
I don't want to talk about that. We know, however, that many crucial witnesses refused to appear before the committee.
We saw the theatre performed by Zbigniew Ziobra.
There's been any kind of incredible struggle. On the another hand, if we effort to draw the essence of what the committee has done, I think that many interesting facts have exposed the public.
Like what?
For me, the evidence of prosecutors who were active in the Pegasus case was very interesting.
That was absurd, curiosium.
It was a image of an highly public prosecutor. It is crucial to see what is happening to the state where the combined office of the lawyer General and the Minister of Justice begins to be curious in its ministry only in terms of party-political-private interests.
This is simply a warning. To fix the state, you gotta make a diagnosis first. And these are the elements of this diagnosis. That's how I look at it. And I was very curious to see those auditions. Not only due to the fact that they concern me personally, due to the fact that I conduct these cases, but besides due to the fact that they show the state.
Diagnosis is important, but for Poles the most crucial are circumstantial actions. For example, the individual who signed a paper on the transfer of funds from the Justice Fund to acquisition Pegaus should be liable.
I agree. Everything is based on the fact that the governments of the Law and Justice were so clearly immoral that you don't request to be a lawyer to see the scale of the state being robbed. Most of us grew up on a decalogue, whether we were believers or not.
The legal standard that is included in the conviction "Don't Steal" is socially natural, simple. It is clear that we would have expected that the state was stolen, immediate action.
On the another hand, I have been working in the judiciary for respective years and I know precisely how long things are going on. And sometimes we have reasons to be angry, frustrated, helpless. Nevertheless, I think time will bring justice.
Are we going to know the full fact about Pegasus after the findings of the committee of inquiry?
I believe we will know the full fact about Pegasus. It will not only be the consequence of the work of the committee of inquiry, but besides of the prosecutors, I believe that besides the courts that will consider these matters.
These are besides stories of the victims. Everyone has the right to go out and publically tell them what happened to him. There are many elements that make up 1 puzzle. I talk about Pegasus all the time.
Your husband, too. late in the European Parliament, where he spoke hard about Maciej Wąsik.
It was an accurate and strong speech. We besides want the public to be informed. We want people to know what point the PiS has led you to.
President Kaczyński asked before the committee if he was aware that Krzysztof Brejza was being watched, and on his telephone was uploaded above the gigabyte of data, replied that it is "fake news". Earlier, he said, "As for a case that is widely known, or lords of Brejs, both of them have committed serious crimes according to my judgment. But of course they must be confirmed by the court." Why does president Kaczyński not like your husband so much?
On September 16, we have the first punishment date with Mr. Kaczyński. I invitation all media to the Warsaw-Śródmieście territory Court, the wokanda is already listed. There'll be a conciliation proceeding if the president wants to apologize to my husband, we'll end the proceedings.
The second part of the question: why does president Kaczyński dislike your husband so much?
It's kind of an obsession. Kaczyński has a very authoritarian schnitzel. My husband is simply a beautiful clear politician, speaking out about his beliefs, revealing matters compromising the Law and Justice.
Politicians of this organization like to usage slogans specified as morality, justice, law. And abruptly it turns out that everything is precisely the opposite. They would like to present themselves as pro-stateists, while the scale of stealing from the state, the usage of national assets, is absolutely exceptional. A complete deficiency of morality. Pure power in a very bad sense, that is, "over dead bodies to target."
Pleasure likes silence. And whoever interrupts this silence becomes public enemy number one. There are many of these enemies, including my husband. But I'm waiting for September 16. I'm very excited about this term. I'm excited.
You were a tool, and who was the target?
Certainly the goal was the 2019 parliamentary elections. From the point of view of the Law and Justice, they were very crucial. And indeed, the next word allowed them to consolidate power, stir and steal.
So politicized peculiar services were trying to influence the result of the election?
Of course. The election was definitely a target. On the another hand, the resources they gained were meaningless. erstwhile you have politically frozen courts, unequivocally politicized prosecutors and peculiar services in your hands – you can do anything.
The PEGA EP committee recognised the usage of the "European Watergate affair" for the Pegasus State. 85,000 messages, six months of surveillance that ended 4 days after the election.
Yeah. There's quite a few court cases going on with Pegasus' surveillance. All the civilian proceedings I brought, I won.
You're adamant.
I have no choice.
Did you get back together after what was done to you in 2019?
That was years ago. We needed any time to calm our nerves, prepare an action plan. But we surely wanted to defend ourselves. We felt it was our work to defend ourselves, children.
Did you not have any concerns that any of Poles would consider the message of public media to be any fact about you?
The harm done by the talk, through the media, is enormous. And it will stay in the minds of certain people. Not all of us can be persuaded by facts.
It's most likely a failure of safety too.
The state needs not only to remove the PiS from power, but besides fuses for the usage of operational control, supervision of peculiar services. In order for specified stories to never happen again, we request legally regulated fuses.
There's no way to number on dirty people leaving and decent people coming. There's a fuse in people. There's a fuse in the system. And the strategy must warrant this safety.
As a Pole, a mother, your wife feel safe in your home?
I've never fallen into overwhelming fear. I think a man has to face the situation in which he is posed. It's clear there's a sense of danger at first, of devastation.
But the more we talk about it, the safer we'll be. It served me, though we never wanted to talk about our harm. We have always talked about surveillance in the context of the functioning of the state, the changes needed.
It's been six years, and I'm not in any kind of trauma. Though I do remember the harm that was done to us. She should be fixed.
This is besides the harm done to your children – at the time 3 young children, who besides faced hate.
The eldest boy is now 15 years old, the another children are already reading, and they can easy see what was written about us, they have been told. any kind of cost is always incurred. I'm most likely not truly able to see them and counteract them.
I effort to be attentive to children, to translate, to calm. I wouldn't want them surviving in an atmosphere of fear. She helped us. My husband and I utilized to drive around Poland and talk about Pegasus.
That most likely gave you a sense of cause, too?
Yeah, and a sense of control. Court cases are the same.
What's the large deal?
Must be quite a few peace. And she took distant my ideals. I had an idealistic approach to my profession. I started in 2008. I remember walking into court and feeling respect.
I knew mistakes could happen, but "we have 2 instances." This communicative with Pegasus' surveillance unrepeated me from all professional illusions, showed the top cynicism that can be imagined in the justice system.
What about private?
She took quite a few peace from us, gave us a life. We were focused on working around Pegasua. She besides took quite a few time and peace from our children.
I remember my youngest boy going to the ball for the first time. I truly wanted to see his first practice, so I went. But there was a message about Pegasus. And I couldn't watch that training anymore. So this affair took distant quite a few moments like this, the pleasures of life.
